Joe Rogan Experience #2516 - Rowan Jacobsen
In a Nutshell
The core message is that moderate, regular sun exposure provides major health benefits—especially for cardiovascular health, mood, and vitamin D—that outweigh skin cancer risks for most people, while isolated vitamin D pills fail to replicate these benefits. Sun avoidance guidelines are overly broad, ignore skin type differences, and stem from dermatologists narrowly focused on preventing burns and cancer rather than overall mortality. The key practical takeaway is to build tolerance through gradual daily exposure, avoid burning, and use only mineral or modern broad-spectrum sunscreens when needed, as chemical versions carry absorption and environmental concerns.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Joe Rogan discusses the confusion around sun exposure: whether the sun is beneficial or harmful, why it produces vitamin D if it's considered dangerous, and why people develop skin cancer despite its benefits. Rowan Jacobsen explains that the topic is complex and that conventional messaging has not acknowledged this complexity, which motivated his book.
Before writing the book, Jacobsen held the conventional view that sun exposure was harmful. However, his personal instincts suggested otherwise because he felt good when in the sun, and after six months of winter in Vermont, he felt bad. He sensed there was more to the story than institutions were communicating. Rogan notes that sunlight triggers the release of opiates in the brain, and the body rewards people for getting it.
Jacobsen's research began seven to eight years ago during a science journalism fellowship. Studies showed that light hitting skin improves cognition and increases metabolism. Additional research indicated sunlight could lower blood pressure. When he searched for data on how much sunlight shortens lifespan, the results showed it actually extends lifespan, which prompted him to question why this information was not more widely known.
Sunlight does increase skin cancer risk, but the relationship is not linear across all types. Ultraviolet light, the most energy-intense part of the solar spectrum, can damage DNA molecules directly when photons hit skin, leading to mutations and cancer. UV light can also indirectly cause cancer by creating reactive oxygen species (free radicals) that steal electrons from other atoms, triggering chain reactions. These mechanisms were identified in the 1940s and 1950s, leading scientists to begin questioning sun exposure levels.
Vitamin D production from sunlight was discovered in the 1920s, building on earlier observations that sunlight prevented rickets, a soft bone disease caused by insufficient calcium in bones during childhood. During the Industrial Revolution in the late 1800s, city children working in factories and living in coal-smogged tenements developed rickets, while farm children did not. Initial theories suggested dietary causes, possibly vitamin A, but experiments clarified the role of sunlight.
A researcher in Scotland tested dogs kept indoors and fed oatmeal (the typical Scottish diet at the time). The dogs developed rickets. The researcher initially attributed this to diet, but later realized the lack of sunlight was the cause. Scientists discovered that ultraviolet light hitting cholesterol molecules in the skin breaks a bond, converting the molecules into vitamin D. This led to a period in the 1920s through 1940s when sun exposure was promoted as a cure for many conditions.
During the 1920s to 1940s, parents sent children to alpine institutes in Switzerland for heliotherapy. Children skied and attended classes in their underwear, with instructors doing the same. The prevailing view was that more light was always better, and some people deliberately burned themselves for supposed health benefits.
For melanoma, the most dangerous skin cancer, risk is strongly associated with burning rather than gentle, moderate daily sun exposure. Skin type is a major factor. People with very dark skin almost never develop sun-induced skin cancer. Official recommendations tend to be one-size-fits-all and are written primarily for very fair-skinned individuals. Those with red hair, orange freckles, or a mutation in the melanin gene are particularly susceptible and must be cautious, as they do not tan effectively.
A synthetic peptide analog of alpha-melanocyte stimulating hormone (melanotan) stimulates melanocytes to produce melanin, resulting in a dark tan. It is unregulated, illegal in many regions for cosmetic use, and carries significant health risks including dermatological issues, rapid and uneven darkening of moles, emergence of new moles, hyperpigmentation concerns that could mask or accelerate melanoma, and potentially damaging prolonged erections. The FDA has not approved it for cosmetic use. Unregulated markets raise purity concerns. While it mimics the body's natural melanin production pathway, experts strongly advise against its use due to lack of established safe dosages.
Melanin provides strong UV protection, with dark skin blocking 97-98% of UV rays. Natural tanning through gradual daily sun exposure not only builds melanin but also ramps up the body's nucleotide excision repair systems that fix damaged DNA. This follows hormesis principles, where moderate stress strengthens repair mechanisms. Exercise and other mild stressors similarly enhance these systems. Combining melanin production with repair system activation through controlled exposure may be preferable to artificial methods alone.
Bob Marley died from melanoma on his toe. This type of melanoma is not caused by sun exposure and occurs at similar rates across all races. Melanoma risk is associated with intermittent intense exposure and history of sunburns, which can double risk. Childhood burns show the strongest association with later melanoma. In contrast, chronic daily outdoor exposure, such as among landscapers and outdoor workers, correlates with lower melanoma incidence than among office workers.
In the 1970s and 1980s, people commonly used baby oil to enhance tanning. George Hamilton, known for maintaining a deep tan, reached age 87 and appeared healthy. He used reflective tanning devices. Regular, consistent exposure may allow the body to build protective compounds that prevent cells from becoming cancerous, as living organisms have evolved mechanisms over 500 million years to handle daily sun exposure. Sudden intense exposure on unprepared skin appears more problematic than steady moderate exposure.
The American Academy of Dermatology has officially denounced the research multiple times through formal letters stating that nobody should be getting any sun exposure. Their position is that there should be no sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or clothing, and if that makes someone vitamin D deficient, they should take a pill.
Large clinical trials involving tens of thousands of people followed for many years showed no benefit from vitamin D pills for any condition, including immune response. These trials tested vitamin D supplementation alone without accompanying nutrients like vitamin K2 and magnesium.
Perplexity research indicates that vitamin D taken together with vitamin K2 and magnesium can make each work more effectively, especially for bones and heart health. The combination improves how the body handles calcium: vitamin D helps absorb it, magnesium helps activate vitamin D, and K2 helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries.
Vitamin D on its own only appears to help people who are really deficient (below 16 nanograms per milliliter). For people already at least at 20 nanograms per milliliter, supplementation did not produce the benefits seen in people who naturally had high vitamin D levels through sun exposure.
People with naturally high vitamin D levels through sun exposure have lower rates of every disease. The New England Journal of Medicine published an editorial in 2022 stating to stop prescribing vitamin D because it doesn't work. The disconnect appears to be that observational data from sun exposure shows benefits, while isolated supplementation trials did not replicate those outcomes.
Sun researchers at conferences held in hotel basements appeared pale and unhealthy despite their field of study. The science system is structured around micro-specialties where experts resist looking outside their narrow domain. Dermatologists focus exclusively on preventing skin cancer and are unwilling to entertain benefits outside their field such as cardiovascular health improvements.
Cardiovascular disease causes 20 million deaths a year globally. All observational studies show sun exposure lowers blood pressure and cardiovascular disease rates, though critics argue these are correlations rather than proven causation from clinical trials.
Coffee is considered the best possible supplement, with benefits attributed primarily to mitochondrial function. Caffeine makes mitochondria spin more efficiently, allowing the body to produce energy more efficiently with less wear and tear. Plants produce caffeine to kill bugs by making their mitochondria run out of control. Humans have governors that prevent the explosive effect while retaining the beneficial ramp-up.
Michael Pollan laid off coffee for three or four months and reported that when he resumed, it felt like taking a psychedelic with profound effects. He noted that caffeine researchers themselves often avoid the substance.
Dermatologists contacted about the research respond with boilerplate statements that people should avoid the sun and take vitamin D pills instead. They have avoided engaging with the broader research on sun exposure benefits.
Light medicine is expected to become very important in the next 10 to 20 years. Dermatologists are positioned to lead in this area since skin is the primary interface with light for the body. Red light therapy is already being used by some dermatologists because there is no skin cancer risk from red wavelengths.
Joe Rogan has used a red light bed three times a week for 20 minutes for about two years and reports it completely stopped and reversed his macular degeneration. He no longer needs reading glasses after previously requiring up to 3X magnification. He keeps his eyes open during sessions.
Glenn Jeffrey at University College London has shown in multiple animal studies and human trials that red light improves mitochondrial function and vision. The mitochondria in the eyes have to fire faster than anywhere else in the body, making them particularly responsive to red light benefits.
Science advances one funeral at a time, according to a saying attributed to Max Planck. A young generation is expected to be interested in light and how to use it therapeutically. Current funding systems are self-reinforcing, with grants approved by established figures who fund studies that align with existing beliefs, making it difficult to get funding for research that challenges prevailing views.
Current sun avoidance recommendations fail to account for skin color differences. People with dark skin have almost no risk from sun-induced skin cancer yet can benefit significantly from sun exposure for lowering blood pressure and cardiovascular disease. The recommendations are considered unfair to these populations.
Sun exposure produces powerful mood and happiness effects that are often underplayed. After spending a week in constant rain in Alaska and Prince Edward Island, returning to Los Angeles sunshine produced an intense physical and emotional response described as feeling like an amazing happy drug with endorphins and good feelings. The effect eventually diminished as the body became accustomed to consistent sun exposure.
Early spring transitions from Vermont to Los Angeles produce similar intense positive responses to sunlight that make people want to dance in the streets.
Joe Rogan works out outside daily, performing farmers carries and practicing archery for one and a half to two hours even in 105-degree heat. He credits daily sauna use for acclimating his body to heat, allowing him to train comfortably without dehydration concerns by consuming a 64-ounce jug of water with ice and electrolytes.
A famous photograph shows a truck driver with severe asymmetric aging, where the left side of his face appears dramatically older due to decades of sun exposure through the driver's side window. The condition, sometimes called "truck driver face," demonstrates unilateral dermatoheliosis. The photo shows the left side of the face appearing approximately 20 years older than the right side, with the skin appearing to slope off dramatically.
Window glass blocks UVB radiation but allows UVA to pass through. UVB is the high-energy wavelength responsible for burning, while UVA is lower energy and closer to the blue spectrum. Historically, scientists believed only UVB caused skin cancer, which is why early sunscreens from the 1970s and 1980s only blocked UVB. Research in the 1990s revealed that UVA also causes skin cancer, meaning sun exposure through windows delivers damaging UVA without the warning signal of a burn.
In the United States, people show slightly higher skin cancer rates on the left side of their body, while in the UK the pattern reverses with higher rates on the right side, corresponding to which side of the road drivers sit on. The difference is statistically significant at approximately 52-48 percent, though modest in magnitude.
Early sunscreens functioned similarly to window glass by blocking only UVB, allowing users to remain in the sun without burning while receiving continuous UVA exposure. SPF ratings measure only UVB protection, indicating how many times longer someone can stay in the sun before burning. An SPF 30 theoretically allows 30 times longer exposure before burning occurs. Modern understanding indicates UVA exposure is most likely to cause melanoma.
Rogan uses natural, beef tallow-based sunscreen with zinc oxide when needed, noting it leaves a visible white cast unlike chemical spray sunscreens. Chemical sunscreen ingredients are absorbed through the skin at higher rates than previously recognized. FDA and CDC studies found these chemicals appear in blood, breast milk, and urine at concerning levels. Ingredients like oxybenzone are suspected hormone disruptors. The FDA has not approved many chemical filters as safe pending further testing.
The FDA approved Bemotrizinol as an over-the-counter sunscreen ingredient in June 2026, the first new approval in 30 years. This ingredient provides broad-spectrum UVA and UVB protection, remains photostable without breaking down in sunlight, applies transparently without a white cast, and suits sensitive skin. European and Asian markets have used superior ingredients like Bemotrizinol and Mexoryl 400 for decades while American sunscreens remained behind due to regulatory classification of sunscreens as drugs requiring extensive safety testing.
Chemical sunscreens damage coral reefs when swimmers enter the water. Studies following COVID restrictions showed reef recovery in areas where tourism decreased and sunscreen use dropped. Hawaii and other locations banned certain chemical sunscreen formulations. The damage occurs at high concentrations from large numbers of snorkelers and swimmers.
Research examining lifespan found no measurable positive or negative impact from sunscreen use. Potential endocrine disruption remains a concern among toxicologists. Graham Peasley at Notre Dame documented forever chemical contamination in many cosmetic products, including those claiming water resistance or smooth texture, even when not listed on ingredient labels. Some contamination originates from fluorinated plastic containers designed to prevent contents from adhering to packaging walls.
Heating plastic containers causes chemical leaching into contents. Paper coffee cups contain a plastic lining that prevents liquid absorption, effectively creating a plastic barrier between hot liquid and paper. Most coffee machines contain extensive plastic components. Water bottles left in hot cars should never be consumed from due to plastic leaching.
Hand sanitizer primarily contains alcohol, either isopropyl or ethanol, with some formulations using benzalkonium chloride in alcohol-free versions. Overuse disrupts the skin microbiome, which maintains communication with the gut microbiome through the gut-skin axis. The skin microbiome responds to products, sun exposure, and other environmental factors. Probiotics influence both gut and skin health.
Jiu-jitsu practitioners in the early 2000s began using probiotics including acidophilus, yogurt, kimchi, and fermented vegetables to prevent skin infections from mat exposure. Antibacterial soaps eliminate beneficial skin flora along with pathogens. Defense Soap, formulated specifically for grapplers, contains tea tree oil and eucalyptus to eliminate harmful organisms while supporting healthy skin flora.
Jacobsen's 2018 Outside magazine article titled "Is Sunscreen the New Margarine?" generated significant response, including an official letter from the American Academy of Dermatology expressing concern that suggesting benefits from sunlight exposure was dangerous. The provocative title may have overshadowed the article's data. Subsequent articles addressed skin color considerations and whether uniform sun protection recommendations adequately serve diverse populations.
Skin pigmentation represents adaptation to environmental light conditions. Populations that migrated northward developed lighter skin to maximize limited vitamin D production from weak sunlight. When populations with northern European ancestry relocate to high-UV environments like Australia, skin cancer rates increase dramatically, reaching two to three times higher than global averages due to the mismatch between fair skin and intense sunlight combined with historical ozone depletion.
David Reich, the Harvard ancient DNA researcher, released a new study showing that the pale redhead gene emerged suddenly a few thousand years ago and rapidly increased in frequency. The gene had been present in low levels but then exploded in popularity approximately four to five thousand years ago, specifically in Northern Europe, likely driven by environmental pressures. This demonstrates how quickly genetic traits can spread when conditions favor them.
Australians of similar genetic background to UK populations experience much higher skin cancer rates due to intense sunlight, yet they show better overall lifespan than people in the UK. The benefits of sunlight appear to outweigh the skin cancer risk in this comparison. Outdoor activity levels in Australia may contribute to this advantage, though disentangling all contributing factors remains difficult.
A doctor working in New York City during winter observed patients with undetectable vitamin D levels, particularly among individuals with darker skin. Darker skin requires five to ten times more sunlight exposure to produce equivalent vitamin D compared to lighter skin. People with very dark skin evolved for bright tropical environments with constant outdoor exposure and may struggle in darker climates without compensation.
Future genetic engineering may allow toggling skin tone and other traits on and off. This raises complex questions about racial and cultural appropriation when individuals could adopt healthier skin tones that provide better sun protection. The discussion references a woman in the UK who used tanning injections to become extremely dark-skinned while also undergoing extensive plastic surgery including large breast implants.
Melanin is produced by melanocytes at the bottom of the epidermis and functions as an exceptionally effective UV absorber. After production, melanin must migrate upward to the skin surface where it forms protective umbrellas over cell nuclei. If melanin remains too low in the skin due to lack of sun exposure, sudden intense sunlight can cause it to absorb radiation deeper in the skin, potentially generating more free radicals and worsening damage.
True redheads possess a different type of melanin that absorbs sunlight poorly. These individuals should avoid midday sun with high UV levels but can benefit from morning and evening light that lacks significant UV. Sunscreen or covering up provides protection. Gradual sun exposure may help some pale individuals build tolerance depending on their genetics, though full outdoor sun exposure remains risky for gingers.
Despite extensive medical research, sun exposure effects remain poorly understood. Many areas of medicine involve significant guesswork even among experts. Sun exposure demonstrates antidepressant effects competitive with pharmaceutical antidepressants, while regular exercise outperforms known antidepressants by a substantial margin.
Some users report Melanotan 2 changing hair color, with one documented case of a Belgian ginger whose hair and beard shifted from red/gray to permanently darker after using one vial over more than a year at low doses. His skin later returned to a paler state while the hair color change persisted. Current evidence does not strongly support Melanotan having reliable effects on scalp or body hair color, suggesting the reported case may be unusual.
Melanotan stimulates melanocortin receptors in the brain involved in sexual arousal and erection control. Studies show subcutaneous Melanotan 2 caused erections in most men with erectile dysfunction, often without sexual stimulation, and increased sexual desire in a majority of participants compared to placebo. Common side effects include yawning, nausea, stretching, flushing, and decreased appetite, with severe nausea possible at higher doses. The compound shows erectogenic effects even in men who failed PDE5 inhibitors.
The current medical messaging has strongly discouraged sun exposure, making any recommendation for even modest amounts feel uncomfortable to some. Only small amounts of sun exposure appear necessary for most benefits. People with very dark skin can likely tolerate significantly more exposure safely.
The dietary fat debate provides a parallel example where experts were completely wrong. Twenty-five years ago, the consensus held that dietary fat caused weight gain and promoted heart disease, leading to recommendations to cut fat and consume carbohydrates and margarine. Gary Taubes' New York Times Magazine article challenged this view, and subsequent research by Taubes and Nina Teicholz contributed to overturning the old guidelines. The food pyramid was eventually revised substantially.
Pasture-raised eggs represent an excellent food source that can be obtained ethically by keeping chickens as pets. These chickens provide daily eggs while consuming yard bugs and receiving care. The bright orange yolks indicate nutrient density from natural foraging. Commercially produced eggs may have artificially darkened yolks from chickens fed turmeric or curcumin, though this does not necessarily harm nutritional value. Farm-raised salmon receive dye to achieve pink coloration because their pale appearance results from poor diet lacking the arthropods that give wild salmon their color.
Studies on moderate drinking show that one to two drinks per day has minimal impact on mortality rates. Moderate alcohol consumption may provide slight benefits or slight drawbacks depending on the research examined. Alcohol serves as a social lubricant that reduces stress and relieves social anxiety, allowing people to relax and enjoy social environments more fully.
Joe Rogan shared his personal experience with alcohol. He gave up drinking for eight months and initially felt significantly better. However, he resumed moderate consumption after having a margarita with his wife, finding the social aspect enjoyable. He now limits himself to no more than two drinks at a time. Two drinks appears to be a cutoff point where daily functions remain normal, though sleep quality is still affected.
Wearing tracking devices like Whoop or Oura Ring reveals that alcohol affects sleep quality and recovery, even at moderate levels. Just one glass of wine disrupts sleep patterns. This effect became noticeable for Rogan in middle age, whereas it was not a problem earlier in life. Two drinks appears to be the threshold where the body still functions normally during the day, but sleep is less restorative.
Timing of alcohol consumption may influence its effects on sleep. Drinking a glass of wine at dinner around 6:00 PM with bedtime at midnight may give the body time to process the alcohol, potentially reducing sleep disruption.
The Mediterranean lifestyle, developed over approximately 2,000 years, appears to work effectively. Mediterranean cultures maintain thin physiques while consuming mostly carbohydrates, which contradicts typical macronutrient-based explanations. Multiple factors contribute to this outcome beyond diet alone.
Key differences include absence of glyphosate use, heirloom wheat varieties with lower complex wheat gluten content, and fewer food additives and preservatives compared to American products. American bread contains bromine and various additives that create digestive issues. Italian flour produces noticeably different food quality.
Light exposure plays a role in Mediterranean health outcomes. Mediterranean regions receive abundant sunlight. Lower stress levels characterize these cultures, with less career focus and stronger family orientation. Tight-knit family groups eat dinner together, engage in frequent laughter, and consume wine regularly.
Many Mediterranean populations continue smoking cigarettes at high rates. This raises questions about whether cigarettes produce different health effects depending on context. In certain environments with other protective factors, damage may be reduced compared to smoking in isolation.
Polyphenols in olive oil may counteract some cigarette damage. Mediterranean populations with olive oil-rich diets may experience this protective effect. This supports the broader principle that substances can be harmful in one context and less damaging in another.
Rowan Jacobsen's work on chocolate began with an Outside magazine assignment involving a trip to the Bolivian Amazon. He accompanied a German man seeking wild cacao to create the world's first wild chocolate with indigenous groups. The journey involved landing on a flooded runway in a lawless region known for cocaine trafficking.
Armed guards confronted the pair upon landing, assuming they might be DEA agents. The German guide negotiated a landing fee. The region, called the Beni, consists of tropical rainforest lowlands with extensive cattle ranching and drug traffic routes from the Andes.
Wild cacao tastes significantly better than industrial varieties, with more aromatics and less bitterness. Industrial cacao production selected for high-yielding varieties at the expense of flavor compounds. Most commercial cacao now comes from Africa and tends to be more bitter and less complex.
Wild cacao supports indigenous groups economically while preserving rainforest canopy. Cacao grows in the forest understory, allowing monetization of intact rainforest rather than conversion to cattle pasture. This provides an alternative to deforestation.
Cacao ranks alongside coffee in health benefits, containing substantial polyphenols and small amounts of caffeine. It demonstrates anti-inflammatory properties and provides a mild energy boost. Cacao produces mood elevation through mechanisms similar to and distinct from coffee.
European selection of cacao varieties prioritized yield over aromatic qualities present in ancient Maya cacao. A movement over the past 10-15 years has sought heirloom varieties in Latin America, particularly in the Amazon where cacao originated.
Caputo, based in Salt Lake City, serves as the primary importer of specialty chocolate and offers wild cacao varieties through their website. They maintain both an online retail presence and a physical shop in Salt Lake City.
Ritual cacao ceremonies represent a modern invention rather than an ancient Maya practice. A man named Keith in Guatemala originated the concept, which subsequently spread. These ceremonies involve consuming cacao in a ritual setting with mindfulness elements, though the psychoactive effects remain minimal.
Oysters contain zinc and are considered aphrodisiacs. The aphrodisiac effect may relate more to ingesting living tissue than to specific nutrient content. Oysters represent a living organism being consumed, which some attribute to a vital energy factor.
Shellfish like oysters, clams, and mussels are more primitive than plants in terms of consciousness. Evidence suggests plants possess greater awareness than these shellfish. Oysters cannot move and only open and close their shells, while clams possess greater mobility.
Oysters carry food poisoning risk and cause several deaths annually. Rogan's wife contracted food poisoning from oysters in Hawaii, and his daughter subsequently became ill despite not consuming oysters. The viruses and bacteria responsible for food poisoning spread through poor hygiene, shared surfaces, and aerosolized particles from vomiting.
Rogan has long suspected sun exposure provides health benefits, with the key being appropriate dosage and avoiding burns. The body produces vitamin D through sun exposure and people report feeling good from it, suggesting the relationship is nuanced rather than purely harmful.
Rowan Jacobsen's book is titled "In Defense of Sunlight" and is available through major online retailers including Amazon. An audiobook version exists with Jacobsen as the narrator.
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