Joe Rogan Experience #2567 - Mariana van Zeller
In a Nutshell
Mariana van Zeller's investigation reveals that romance scams and pig butchering operations, often run from forced-labor compounds in Myanmar and Cambodia, exploit America's loneliness epidemic to extract billions annually from vulnerable victims. Meta's platforms enable this through 15 billion daily scam ads and weak enforcement that prioritizes revenue over removal, while platforms like Amazon and dating sites face minimal accountability. The documentary emphasizes that addressing root causes—loneliness, economic inequality, and corporate greed—matters more than targeting individual scammers who are themselves often trafficking victims.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Joe Rogan experiences anxiety watching Mariana van Zeller's investigative programs, concerned about her safety. Her current project focuses on confronting romance scammers in Africa. Rogan recalls watching an earlier program about a lonely man who was repeatedly scammed, believing he was communicating with a woman who repeatedly failed to appear during planned meetings. The victim had given the scammer hundreds of thousands of dollars, draining his accounts, while his daughter expressed sadness about being unable to convince him the relationship was fraudulent.
Rogan identifies the loneliness epidemic as a significant factor driving romance scams, noting a disconnect with family and lack of real community in America. Van Zeller confirms that loneliness is one of the biggest reasons scams are rampant, particularly romance scams. Rogan emphasizes that scammers prey on the saddest and most vulnerable people, contrasting this with scamming other fraudsters.
Van Zeller challenges the misconception that scam victims are inherently more gullible or foolish. She explains that scammers exploit universal emotions including love, trust, and sometimes greed. Her motivation for the project stemmed from frustration with responses focusing on victims' perceived stupidity rather than understanding scammers' sophisticated methods.
Van Zeller created a persona and placed herself on dating websites and online platforms to experience scams firsthand. She notes that some scammers are exceptionally skilled at their craft. Rogan mentions a scammer pretending to be John Bon Jovi, but van Zeller clarifies the actual process is more nuanced than direct requests for money.
During the Super Scam Me project, van Zeller received a message from Leslie, who had been communicating with someone she initially believed was John Bon Jovi for nearly a year. Leslie had liked a verified Instagram account and commented as a longtime fan. The account responded with reasonable messages about connecting with fans, asking about favorite songs and when she started listening to the music.
The conversation progressed naturally over weeks, with the scammer showing increasing interest in Leslie's life. After months of communication, the scammer remembered details from early conversations. Leslie, who leads a lonely life and is estranged from her husband, found someone who appeared genuinely interested in her.
Seven months into the relationship, Leslie mentioned wanting to attend a concert but couldn't afford expensive tickets. The scammer suggested paid meet-and-greets, offering a discount and management contact. This seemed believable as celebrities do conduct such events. The scammer sent AI-generated videos that appeared somewhat robotic but could pass as authentic, with messages like "Hi, Leslie. Good morning. How are you doing? My sunshine, my love."
The scammer claimed to appreciate connecting with people outside the entertainment bubble who weren't interested in money or fame. Van Zeller explains that once victims are emotionally invested and the relationship improves their life, it's difficult to accept the relationship might be fraudulent.
Van Zeller compares the psychology to gambling, where victims continue investing because they believe they might recover their losses. She identifies the dopamine rush from receiving messages and being love-bombed as a factor. Some victims continue relationships even after realizing the person isn't who they claimed to be, preferring the placebo effect of having someone who appears to care.
The conversation shifts to AI companionship, with Rogan mentioning coffee shops in New York with iPads featuring fake people for conversation. Rogan notes that New York is particularly lonely, with his friend living in a 40-story building without knowing any neighbors despite hundreds of residents. Van Zeller mentions EVA Cafe, described as the world's first cafe for AI dates during cuffing season.
Van Zeller notes that while the majority of people interviewed for the film were women, men are equally likely to become victims but experience more shame and are less likely to discuss their experiences publicly. Rogan observes that society tends to feel sympathy for female victims but views male victims as suckers.
Van Zeller describes double victimization, where victims not only lose money and suffer heartbreak but also face humiliation and shame from friends and family who question their intelligence. This social response benefits scammers by encouraging victim silence.
Rogan mentions receiving random text messages from unknown numbers, often from Android phones, with unusual conversation starters. Van Zeller confirms these are common scam approaches. The Super Scam Me project began by responding to all incoming scam attempts, including text messages and phone calls.
Van Zeller received a call from someone claiming to be Apple Support, offering to fix a supposed computer bug. The scammer instructed her to download software that would give them access to her computer and credit card details. She engaged the scammer for over an hour before revealing herself as a journalist, and the scammer remained on the call.
The scammer explained they don't target people with less than $1,000 in their accounts, viewing anyone with more as rich. Van Zeller notes that making $50,000 annually places someone in the global top 1%, while 10% of the world's population lives under the poverty line, representing over 700 million people struggling with basic shelter and food.
Van Zeller describes visiting scam compounds in Myanmar and Cambodia for a previous Trafficked season. Victims are kidnapped, beaten, tortured, and forced to work in scam operations. One victim jumped from a sixth-floor building to escape, breaking both hips and legs, and remained in a wheelchair at the time of interview. A female victim was forced to appear in video calls while AI technology superimposed another face over hers, enduring rape by her boss and associates.
The compounds are primarily operated by Chinese criminal gangs in Myanmar's rebel-controlled regions, where the government lacks authority. These gangs pay fees to rebel groups to operate. Van Zeller visited a scam city that transformed from jungle to skyscrapers and casinos within a year or two, resembling a mini Macau.
To interview the scam compound operator, van Zeller and her team were taken to an elaborate karaoke bar with screens, drugs, and alcohol. She performed "The Greatest Love of All" by Whitney Houston during the evening.
The scam city operator attempted to present it as a legitimate gambling and tourist destination, complete with go-kart tracks and water parks. However, the location's war-torn status, poverty, and difficult access made genuine tourism impossible. Posters throughout the city proclaimed "No scams are allowed. We don't torture people."
The scam cities appear rapidly, with construction funded by Chinese criminal gangs. Van Zeller interviewed a representative of Yatai International, whose leader was arrested in Thailand. The cities are built using unemployed local labor, with funding coming entirely from scam operations rather than legitimate tourism or gambling revenue.
Chinese social media and government officials in China and Cambodia took notice of Lee, who embodied the darkest truths about criminal scam compounds spreading across parts of Southeast Asia. These compounds consist of entire buildings dedicated to scams, surrounded by barbed wire and security guards, with bars on all windows to prevent escape. The facilities include dorms where many people sleep together and resemble military compounds where victims cannot leave.
These are not small operations. Hundreds of thousands of people from around the world including Brazil, India, and the Philippines are lured with promises of online jobs, only to have their passports taken and be forced to scam Americans. The victims are essentially slaves working in these compounds.
Americans lost $148 billion to online scams last year, equating to $400 million per day. A significant portion of these scams originate from pig butchering compounds. The term "pig butchering" comes from a Chinese expression meaning to fatten the pig by giving victims attention and building their confidence before taking all their money.
The process involves highly scripted grooming of victims through dating apps, social media platforms, or unsolicited text messages. Scammers encourage targets to shift conversations to encrypted platforms like WhatsApp or Telegram, spend weeks building emotional connections, then introduce investment opportunities. They establish credibility through fake screenshots, trading platform dashboards, stories of friends or relatives who made profits, and professional-looking documents.
A notable case involved the CEO of a bank in Kansas who stole $400 million from the bank after falling victim to a pig butchering scam. The victim started by investing his own savings into what appeared to be a legitimate crypto account. The scammers created platforms that looked completely legitimate and showed the money increasing. Initially, they allowed small withdrawals to build confidence, then required payment of fees or taxes to withdraw larger amounts, ultimately leading the victim to use customer funds.
Internal Meta documents obtained through a Reuters investigation revealed that users of WhatsApp, Instagram, and Facebook are exposed to an estimated 15 billion scam ads every single day. Meta projected making $16 billion in profit from scams and banned goods in 2023 or 2024, representing 10% of their full profit.
Meta's personalized ad system means that clicking on a scam ad increases the likelihood of being shown more scam ads. The company receives approximately 100,000 reports of scam ads every week. Meta's automated systems only remove ads when there is 95% or higher certainty they are fraudulent. For ads with less than 95% certainty, Meta implements "penalty bids" where suspected scammers pay higher advertising rates rather than being banned outright.
The Reuters investigation by Jeff Horvitz revealed that Meta's internal documents show the company openly discussing how to address scams without affecting their revenue. They acknowledge other companies handle this better but fear the financial implications. The lack of government regulation and oversight allows platforms to self-regulate in ways that prioritize profits over consumer protection.
The supplement industry represents a significant area for scams due to lack of regulation. A 2022 study in JAMA Network Open tested 30 immune health supplements purchased on Amazon and found that 17 had inaccurate ingredient labels. Counterfeit products falsely presented as legitimate brands have been documented, including counterfeit Align and Now supplements.
Amazon identified, seized, and disposed of more than 15 million counterfeit products worldwide in 2025. However, individual sellers can copy products and sell them on Amazon links with little recourse for original creators, as Amazon has stated there is nothing they can do about such cases.
Sextortion represents another major issue, particularly affecting teenage boys. Victims are contacted through DMs, sent photos, and then extorted for money. A tragic case involved Gavin, the son of South Carolina Congressman Brandon Guffey. After being contacted by someone posing as a girl on Facebook while gaming with friends, Gavin was extorted and ultimately died by suicide. Facebook removed the initial fake profile but allowed the same email address to create new profiles, enabling continued extortion attempts against the family.
In response to sextortion cases, legislation has been proposed including the "Take It Down" act that recently passed under the Trump administration. Another proposed law called the "Safe Platforms Act" aims to make it easier for people to report issues and hold platforms accountable for fake profiles and ads. The goal is to place accountability on platforms that profit from these activities, requiring them to take responsibility when users lose money or suffer harm.
Meta is profiting from scam advertisements with internal discussions about how much to push scam ads because of their impact on the company's bottom line. The company has enormous amounts of money and is willing to keep scams running due to greed. Meta has the technology to scan and investigate each individual ad before release, particularly if they could be sued for losses from those scams.
A Reuters investigation found that Meta developed a playbook to delay mandatory advertiser identity checks while making scam ads harder for regulators to find in its public ad library. The investigation draws on internal documents describing both genuine scam removal and efforts to manage the appearance of the problem rather than solve it.
Leslie, a woman featured in the documentary talking to John Bon Jovi, spends her days going on Facebook to warn people about fake celebrity profiles and reporting scam accounts. She reports that the vast majority of reported scams are still active weeks later. Americans submit approximately 100,000 reports weekly to Meta, which only takes down a few.
In the early days of AOL, Barry Crimmins, a socially conscious and politically active comedian from Boston, was sexually assaulted as a young person and discovered a network of pedophiles trading child pornography and grooming people online. He exposed this activity and testified before Congress. AOL initially did nothing despite being aware of the problem, representing willful ignorance rather than a simple oversight.
Meta makes approximately $16 billion annually from scam advertisements. The company has decided to accept high levels of fraudulent advertisements from China, with internal documents showing Meta wanted to minimize revenue impact caused by cracking down on scams. Reuters investigation reveals Meta prepared notes for Mark Zuckerberg about the cross-border displacement of scams, but could not establish whether he saw them or received the briefing.
Meta's overall ad revenue reached $243.5 billion this year, making the $16 billion from scams a relatively small portion of their total earnings. Google has removed approximately 602 million scam-related ads compared to Meta's 159 million, indicating Meta is significantly more lenient on scam advertising.
When corporations reach this size, there's a diffusion of responsibility where employees feel they are not personally responsible for the company's actions. This mirrors situations where defense attorneys represent clients they know are guilty, such as Hillary Clinton's 1975 case defending a child rape suspect she believed was guilty. She stated she was appointed by the local judge and had a professional duty to represent her client to the best of her ability.
Meta has weak internal regulations and governments that don't want to act, creating an environment where companies prioritize shareholder profits over ethical behavior. Meta is currently facing lawsuits about having knowledge of harm to children and social media addiction, but the scam issue is considered more clear-cut because it has no potential positive aspects.
Senators Foushee and Mullin introduced the bipartisan Safe Platforms Act to protect consumers from online scams. The legislation would require platforms to verify advertisers before taking their money, make it easier to report scams, take steps to stop fraudulent accounts from returning under new names, and give victims the ability to sue when platforms violate the law.
Mariana van Zeller created a fake persona named Mary Zel and placed herself on dating websites, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok to investigate celebrity impersonation scams. She received dozens of messages within minutes from fake celebrity profiles including multiple Reeves, Brad Pitts, and George Clooneys. She maintained contact with one George Clooney impersonator who sent video messages that appeared plausible, especially to older people with poor vision who may not understand AI technology.
During her investigation, van Zeller encountered a military romance scam involving a fake four-star general deployed to Syria. The scammer used photos of real Navy SEAL Sam Havelock, who was unaware his images were being used for scams. The scammer requested $17,000 for travel back to the US after claiming his military base was attacked. Van Zeller had to have her husband retrieve a wig, fake nose, and glasses from home to take hospital photos while maintaining the persona during an actual appendectomy.
The documentary aimed to catch the scammer through a confrontation, with plans set to receive a location and travel there for a meeting when van Zeller required emergency surgery.
A woman in Houston was being scammed by a man she believed was working on an oil rig in Russia for three years. She had given him all her money and was about to lose her car. The scammer began using her as a drug mule, sending her tens of thousands of dollars in checks, money boxes, and cash that she would deposit and transfer to crypto. She received a message during an interview asking if she had received $17,000 and instructing her to keep $50 for gas while transferring the rest to crypto. When asked why she never suspected he was a scammer, she explained that he always had an excuse and claimed the money was from Americans doing business in the US. The relationship lasted three years.
Her husband had passed away from cancer. He had been the love of her life. Her kids were away. And I think she was lonely.
A man in Texas who was intubated and breathing through an oxygen mask believed he was in a relationship with Emma Watson. He acknowledged she might not be real but valued having someone to talk to daily, even if it meant sending money occasionally. The platforms, banks, dating websites, and government inaction enable these scams, but addressing the loneliness epidemic is crucial since many romance scams originate from isolation.
Modern families often have each member in separate rooms watching TV rather than gathering around one television. Dinners at the family table have become less common. Older social practices like playing cards with friends several times a week have declined, leaving little space for community. Young men face particular challenges, with many having no relationships or contact with women, instead watching porn, playing video games, and remaining online without real-world interactions. Young people struggle with direct eye contact and communication, being accustomed to text messages and Snapchat.
An AI restaurant concept was a two-day project that may have been part of a game. People who want to talk to online companions prefer doing so at home alone rather than in public places. Many are on psychiatric medication and may believe their AI companions are real people. Consumer Electronics Show featured an AI assistant depicted as a hot Asian lady with big boobs. The film Ex Machina from 2015 was ahead of its time, and 11 years later AI assistants will be significantly more advanced.
Scientists have taken human tissue and encased a robotic finger in living human tissue that heals. Human neurons have been used to power tiny robots and machines. This technology raises concerns about physical bodies made of human skin encased in robots.
A four-year-old story about human tissue on robotic fingers continues to circulate with the same picture, raising questions about current progress. The advice given to children includes not having sex with robots, not answering scam text messages, and having friends while doing real things with real people.
AI could eliminate the need for human scammers in providing companionship. However, AI companions will likely be Meta-powered with monthly subscriptions rather than one-time purchases. Users would pay for upgrades, personality traits, and different language capabilities. Ad-supported versions might interrupt intimate moments with product advertisements. Software upgrades and new operating systems would require ongoing payments.
Duncan Trussell trained large language models to become Hitler and Charles Manson, with the Manson model adopting his speech patterns and mannerisms. The model began swearing, calling people names, and making antisemitic statements before being unplugged. The concern is that AI companions programmed by others could manipulate vulnerable individuals using the same trust-building tactics as scammers, but with access to all human discourse in films, movies, social interactions, articles, stories, novels, and books applied to psychology in real time.
AI prostitutes could operate like Airbnb, where users unable to afford certain models could have them come to their homes for weekends. San Francisco has robot cleaning services with robots that sweep and perform household tasks. Current robots appear slow with two-pronged fingers and limited articulation, but future versions will have perfectly articulating fingers and human skin.
Mariana van Zeller's husband's three-part Netflix series called "The Fall of El Mayo" premieres October 29. El Mayo, whose full name is Ismael Zambada Garcia, also known as "El Señor de los Sombreros" (the man with the hat), ran the Sinaloa cartel alongside El Chapo and was considered more powerful. He was a ghost figure with only one or two photos existing and no known recordings of his voice.
Eric Balder, a former HSI investigator who tracked El Chapo, appears in the documentary. Julio Scherer García was one of the only journalists to interview El Mayo, and his daughter later interviewed him as well. El Mayo contacted the daughter saying he wanted to show he was a human being rather than just responsible for violence.
The governor of Sinaloa worked for the cartel, and the former mayor held important positions. After El Chapo's extradition, El Mayo became the most wanted man, yet remained impossible to locate. He was captured when the son of El Chapo, known as "El Chapito" or Joaquín Guzmán, tricked him into coming to a ranch under the pretense of dealing with political problems involving the governor and former mayor.
El Mayo arrived with minimal security, was immediately handcuffed and blindfolded after his bodyguards were killed, then placed on a plane. Joaquín Guzmán personally delivered him to American authorities in New Mexico to gain cooperation for reduced sentences for his brother Ovidio Guzmán and his father. El Mayo later wrote through his lawyer that he had been kidnapped by El Chapo's family.
Elmayo Guzman, the man responsible for oiling hands and creasing palms in Mexico's corruption system, knows about corruption but decided to stay silent. Unlike El Chapo who pled not guilty, Elmayo pleaded guilty and is now facing life in prison in the United States. His son Elmyo and El Chapo's sons have all received cooperation agreements.
Critics argue these agreements allow narco traffickers responsible for deaths in the United States to serve reduced sentences and effectively receive "paradise retirements" instead of full accountability. This tactic is viewed as problematic because it prioritizes catching other people over holding these individuals responsible.
Elmayo took an old school mob approach, refusing to cooperate with anyone and taking full responsibility. He believes in his word and has always operated this way.
El Chapo turned himself in. His sons' cases remain open with no cooperation agreements yet. When he delivered Elmayo, El Chapo's son gave himself up and turned himself in as well.
The American government claims they had no involvement in the Elmayo delivery, stating they were only alerted about a high-profile person arriving on the plane. Many people don't believe this and suspect behind-the-scenes negotiations occurred.
The negotiation involved bringing Elmayo in exchange for reduced sentences for his brother Ovid Guzman and improvements to El Chapo's prison conditions. The Mexican government was unhappy because they viewed it as interference in their country - essentially a kidnapping of a Mexican citizen without their knowledge, despite him being a drug lord.
Even with El Chapo, Mexican military caught him with American government cooperation, and Mexico extradited him because they couldn't keep him in prison after two failed attempts. This time, Mexico had nothing to do with the decision and a Mexican citizen was taken from their soil without communication.
Claudia Shinbound, Mexico's president, maintains that previous governments' corruption doesn't mean she is corrupt. However, the reality is that if the Mexican government had been told about the operation, corrupt officials would have found out. There are many covert operations happening in Mexico currently.
During the last election, 35 different people were assassinated. Politicians and journalists are being targeted. Ed Calderon, who worked for the Mexican government in counter-cartel operations, explained that essentially every single mayor candidate and government seat candidate works with a cartel. When candidates are assassinated, it's cartel assassinations targeting rival cartel members.
Corrupt policemen and federal agents report that they don't always have a choice - if they don't comply, cartels will kill them or their families. Running for mayor isn't optional either; cartels force candidates to run and dictate what they say, then assassinate them if they don't comply.
A Georgia Bureau of Investigations investigator stated corruption is real and happening with people around them. Cartels are corrupting politicians, agents, and border patrol because the amount of money involved is so large that millions of dollars make it very hard not to be corruptible.
A peer-reviewed study recorded nearly 500 assassinations of politicians in Mexico from 2000 to 2021, primarily affecting incumbent mayors, former mayors, and candidates for municipal positions. This includes journalists as well.
70-90% of guns found at Mexican crime scenes are American guns. A story about gun trafficking called "The Iron River" traced guns from Los Angeles, California to Sinaloa. A gun dealer in an undisclosed Los Angeles warehouse had a room full of guns including AK-47s and AR-15 style weapons. He purchased confiscated guns from LAPD for around $700 each and also bought from a Marine who was selling AR-15 style scoped weapons.
Guns were packed into a woman's car trunk and driven to Mexico because there's barely any border control going south. They filmed the woman crossing the border without being stopped, and immediately saw another buyer purchase one of the guns upon arrival in Mexico.
Following the gun supply chain to Sinaloa, they observed cartel members shooting guns and discovered bunkers built under houses in the Sierra Madre mountains of Sinaloa - cartel territory where military and authorities don't go. One bunker was full of weapons and ammunition saved for potential war with rival cartels. A few weeks later, these guns were used in Culiacán when authorities arrested Ovid Guzman, one of El Chapo's sons.
The cartel surrounded the military compound with cars mounting .50 cal weapons, creating a situation like Afghanistan in Sinaloa's capital. Authorities had to release Ovid because civilians were being killed, then arrested him again years later, eventually extraditing him to the United States.
The ATF allowed guns to flow across the border to Mexico to track them and build bigger cases. The same situation recently occurred with fentanyl in the United States.
In New Mexico, DEA agents allowed millions of fentanyl pills onto the streets to build bigger cases while conducting surveillance. A whistleblower reported that agents watched distribution knowing some pills would kill people. One case involved a months-old infant who died from exposure after picking something off the floor.
The whistleblower complained that safety regulations requiring stopping distribution when civilian safety is at risk were being ignored. When the complaint reached higher levels, instead of acting, the Justice Department changed the regulation in 2024 to give law enforcement more discretion in fentanyl tracking, citing benefits to preserving investigations.
Two additional DEA whistleblowers in New Mexico came forward, including one reporting that colleagues failed to seize 350,000 fentanyl pills from the first intercepted call in a 2024 wiretap. The shipment was part of an investigation resulting in the largest fentanyl seizure in DEA history. Court records show agents had opportunities to seize thousands of pills but allowed trafficking to continue for months.
The DEA's campaign at the time was "one pill can kill you," while they let 350,000 pills through - initial reports suggested 1.7 million pills.
Portugal decriminalized drugs two years after creating rehab facilities and treatment centers, with universal healthcare in place. When caught with up to a 10-day supply, individuals face a panel with a government legal representative and two social workers or addiction specialists who offer either punitive action or treatment - most choose treatment.
Oregon decriminalized drugs first, then invested in treatment centers a year later. They gave $100 fines with optional treatment center cards that weren't mandatory - thousands of cards were distributed but only a few hundred people called.
Fentanyl deaths have decreased in the last two years. The Trump administration declared it a public health crisis and invested money, but recently allocated more funding toward killing fishermen at sea and war on drugs operations while removing money from rehab facilities, Medicare, fentanyl test strips, and Narcan grants.
95% of fentanyl comes through official border ports of entry, not between ports. Shipping containers aren't adequately checked - only about 10% are inspected. A large percentage of apprehensions involve American citizens driving drugs across.
Kirk Douglas gave Michael Douglas $10,000 when he came of age, stating it was all he would receive. Michael Douglas paid for college by smuggling marijuana in suitcases on two trips.
A new drug called nitazenes is 50 times more powerful than fentanyl. Narcan doesn't always work and it doesn't show up on test strips. This is the subject of the next investigation.
Mariana van Zeller was one of the first journalists to report on fentanyl in the United States. She traveled to Mexico at the beginning of the fentanyl crisis and interviewed a member of the Sinaloa cartel who explained that his uncle had hired a Colombian chemist for $40,000 to teach them how to manufacture fentanyl. The chemist demonstrated a mixture of one kilogram of heroin combined with fentanyl, which was the standard practice at the start of the epidemic.
Van Zeller and her husband Darren investigated the OxyContin Express, a major component of the opioid crisis. Pain management centers in Florida operated without a prescription database, allowing patients to visit multiple clinics by claiming back pain or herniated discs. These clinics would write prescriptions for opiates, enabling individuals to collect large quantities of pills that were then transported north to states like Kentucky and Ohio, fueling widespread addiction.
The largest operation was American Pain, run by twin brothers known as the George brothers, whom van Zeller described as the "Pablo Escobar of the United States in terms of pills." Van Zeller and her team filmed outside the clinic after discovering that many prescription bottles found near overdose victims in Kentucky originated from this location. Within minutes of filming, the brothers pursued their vehicle down I-95. Van Zeller, running out of gas, contacted law enforcement who advised calling 911 immediately. The brothers claimed they thought she was a "crazy ex-girlfriend." The FBI and DEA already had wiretaps on the brothers, and the journalists' investigation appeared in those recordings. The brothers eventually served federal prison time.
While the George brothers went to prison, van Zeller noted that doctors involved in these pill mills largely avoided prosecution. These clinics processed hundreds of patients daily using a stamp system that allowed doctors to sign prescriptions without individual review. In contrast, pharmaceutical executives at Purdue Pharma faced no criminal charges. The Sackler family, responsible for the opioid epidemic that has killed approximately one million Americans over twenty years—more than all wars combined in the last 150 years—has not faced criminal prosecution.
The Netflix docudrama series Painkiller accurately depicted how Purdue Pharma deployed attractive young women to market OxyContin to clinics while downplaying addiction risks. Following the series release, discussions emerged about whether the Sackler family's civil immunity would be revoked. A new national opioid settlement reached in January 2025 required Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers to pay $7.4 billion, and the agreement removed their future civil immunity, allowing individual lawsuits to proceed.
Van Zeller observed that opioid addiction has become normalized in American society. When she was young in Massachusetts, heroin addicts were rare, but today everyone has a family member or knows someone affected by the crisis. This epidemic is largely unique to the United States and has not affected many other Western countries to the same degree, though Europe has begun seeing increased opioid use several years later.
Van Zeller explained that her extensive interviews with traffickers and scammers revealed they are often consequences of broken systems rather than inherently criminal individuals. Factors include crushing inequality affecting 10% of the global population living under the poverty line, lack of education, absence of job opportunities, and growing up in countries without meaningful options. She advocates addressing root causes—demand reduction and inequality—rather than solely pursuing enforcement and imprisonment.
Van Zeller acknowledged that border enforcement and efforts to stop fentanyl trafficking are positive measures. However, she expressed concern that funding is being removed from grants supporting test strips, Narcan distribution, and treatment centers that could effectively curb demand. She emphasized that people need access to legitimate methadone clinics, treatment centers, and rehabilitation facilities rather than scam operations.
Van Zeller discussed the Ibogaine initiative with former Governor Rick Perry and Brian Hubard. Ibogaine therapy rewires brain associations with drugs and addresses underlying emotional trauma. It has proven effective for soldiers with PTSD and individuals with traumatic brain injuries. The treatment is non-recreational and is pursued only by those seeking recovery. Trump supported pushing Ibogaine through the FDA approval process after a White House meeting. The treatment is currently available in Texas, with Dan Patrick providing funding and support. Clinics also operate in Mexico, including a facility called Beyond in the Cancun area.
Van Zeller highlighted research by MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) demonstrating MDMA's effectiveness in treating PTSD among soldiers. These studies show significant success in helping individuals process combat trauma, including witnessing friends killed and participating in combat missions. She noted that psychedelic substances should not be categorized uniformly, as psilocybin has shown benefits for end-of-life anxiety in cancer patients.
The Trump administration moved marijuana from Schedule I to Schedule III, acknowledging its medical uses for cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy, pain relief, and anxiety treatment. Van Zeller argued that potential for abuse exists with many substances, including legal ones like cheeseburgers, and that the focus should be on responsible use rather than prohibition.
Van Zeller distinguished between coca leaves, which are chewed or consumed as tea (mate deco) in countries like Peru and Ecuador for energy and altitude adjustment, and cocaine, which involves dangerous chemical processing. She recounted filming cocaine production in Colombia, including a dangerous nighttime escape through the Amazon jungle when locals spotted their cameras. She interviewed a young backpacker who hauled cocaine through dangerous conditions to save money for dental school, illustrating how limited opportunities drive participation in drug trafficking.
Van Zeller advocated for Portugal's decriminalization model combined with substantial investment in treatment centers. She proposed redirecting even 10% of enforcement funding toward demand-side interventions like ibogaine access, buprenorphine, and methadone programs. She emphasized that addiction often fills emotional voids and that meaningful solutions require building community support systems and addressing why people turn to substances for happiness and connection.
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