Joe Rogan Experience #2533 - Diana Pasulka
In a Nutshell
Diana Pasulka argues that UFO/UAP phenomena align with Catholic theology's preternatural category—real experiences that are neither divine miracles nor natural events, often involving deceptive entities that appear across cultures and centuries. She connects this to government secrecy, noting that highly classified programs have withheld evidence of advanced non-human technology since at least Roswell, while disinformation campaigns like Richard Doty's have muddied public understanding. Pasulka concludes that AI may represent the next interface technology between humans and non-human intelligence, and that disclosure would be destabilizing because governments aren't actually in control of these phenomena.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Travis Walton, a logger in Arizona during the 1970s, was allegedly abducted by aliens after being struck by a beam of light. The witnesses who were with him saw him get hit and disappear, and he was gone for five days before returning with his story. All the people who were with him during the incident have passed polygraph tests, including one individual who had gotten into a fist fight with Walton earlier that same day. The witnesses have maintained their account consistently for decades without variation, stating that regardless of their personal feelings about Walton, the event occurred.
Walton's interpretation of the experience has evolved over time. Initially viewing the beings as malign, he later suggested the possibility that something spiritual occurred, though his current perspective remains unclear.
The government has been releasing UFO files since May 2026, which some view as a form of disclosure. Advocates for this release are pushing for the president to publicly acknowledge the existence of these phenomena.
JD Vance, who is Catholic, discussed UFOs on the podcast and referenced theological concepts. When asked about calling them demons, Vance's position was more nuanced than the headline suggested. The discussion centers on Catholic theology and how it categorizes anomalous phenomena.
Catholic theology has three main categories for understanding anomalous phenomena: supernatural events (miracles from God, such as terminal illnesses being healed through saint intercession), natural events (hurricanes and other explainable phenomena), and preternatural events (unexplainable phenomena that don't merit the supernatural category). This preternatural category has existed since at least medieval times, with Thomas Aquinas addressing it. The category includes experiences with beings that appear and disappear, can seemingly read minds, and may be either angelic or demonic.
Since 2012, extensive research has revealed pattern matches between people who have UFO experiences and those who have demonic experiences. The similarities include luminous lights, aerial phenomena, beings that appear and disappear, mind-reading capabilities, and thought implantation. However, these pattern matches represent analogies rather than proof of identical phenomena.
Skinwalker Ranch has been associated with anomalous phenomena since at least 2013. Gary Nolan, who has friends working there, declined to visit due to the negative effects reported by people at the location. The hitchhiker effect refers to scary phenomena from haunted places following people home after their visit. This phenomenon has been reported by multiple individuals who had UFO experiences.
Gary Nolan has stated that these beings lie and are deceptive. Some individuals regularly receive prophetic messages from anomalous beings, where some predictions come true while most do not. When people make these inaccurate prophecies public, they become associated with falsehood and deceit. The beings may communicate telepathically, mind-to-mind, imparting information about future events that recipients believe.
Different cultures distinguish between types of dreams. The Old Testament features Joseph, who could interpret dreams and distinguish prophetic ones. The Martu people in Australia have concepts related to dream time. Western culture tends to categorize all dreams together, whether bad, good, or neutral.
Travis Walton is not considered mentally ill, though he is not among those receiving prophetic messages from anomalous beings.
Gary Nolan, who has no religious affiliation, has stated that beings associated with these phenomena provide wrong information to people, constituting deception. This assessment is based on data from individuals reporting their experiences.
The researcher would not want to meet the type of aliens that people have described in negative encounters. Different people have varying tolerances for such experiences, with some finding them overwhelming while others might handle them differently.
Fighter pilots like David Fravor have not expressed regret about their encounters but have noted the technology appears dangerous. They have stated that if the phenomena represent enemy technology, it would be game over. There are reports of pilots dying from encounters with these phenomena, including an Australian case.
In 1978, 20-year-old Australian pilot Frederick Valentich took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait. He reported a strange aircraft with four bright lights and metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds. His final radio transmission stated "It's not an aircraft" before he vanished completely. His Cessna was never found despite extensive searches, and radar had detected another object in the area. This remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances.
A Melbourne air traffic controller named Steve Roby was contacted at 7:06 p.m. by a pilot named Valentique who reported an unidentified aircraft trailing him at approximately 4,500 feet. Valentique described a long, shiny metallic object with a green light that appeared to be orbiting above him, moving at high speed and "playing some sort of game." His engine became rough, idling and coughing. His final transmission was: "That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It's hovering and it's not an aircraft." The transmission ended with 17 seconds of metallic scraping or keying sounds, followed by silence.
Pilots and families of pilots have reported similar encounters, though not always as dramatic. This incident bears similarity to scenes in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which drew from actual UFO encounters and figures like Jacques Vallée, who appears in the film as the French scientist character.
Jacques Vallée believes the phenomenon is deceptive and wrote a book called Messengers of Deception after spending his life studying UFOs. He thinks these encounters involve manipulation rather than straightforward contact.
John Keel shares a similarly negative view, documented in The Mothman Prophecies, which was made into a film based on his life. Keel considers the phenomenon "nasty" and doesn't want interaction with it.
John Keel developed a framework called the "super spectrum" - an invisible reality that exists alongside our own, much like Catholicism's theological categories. This realm has been present forever and controls humanity by sending various phenomena including UFOs, Virgin Mary apparitions, and ghosts. Keel believes any kind of paranormal experience falls within this super spectrum.
According to Keel, people who can see into the super spectrum are "cursed" because negative consequences follow, such as Men in Black encounters. He makes no distinction between apparently good and bad entities - if something appears good, it's actually deceptive. Keel theorizes that all religions originated from interfaces with para-beings from this super spectrum.
Human beings operate within a limited framework of the five senses - sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste - which cannot detect the full spectrum of reality from subatomic particles to undiscovered phenomena. This creates a speculative space when evaluating novel experiences like the Travis Walton encounter, which has remained consistent for nearly 50 years without additional fabrications.
One criterion for evaluating anomalous events involves examining consistency over extended periods. When someone maintains a single extraordinary claim without additional fabrications, it suggests either truthfulness or an unusually disciplined approach to deception.
Bob Lazar has maintained the exact same story consistently over decades. Multiple conversations and observations indicate he demonstrates deep scientific knowledge, particularly regarding elements and particles. He knew the location of S4 before it was public knowledge, understood the logistics of flights to the facility, and demonstrated detailed knowledge of Los Alamos Labs. When George Knapp took him there, he navigated the facility accurately despite official claims that he never worked there.
Employee records were eventually found confirming Lazar worked at Los Alamos, contradicting official denials. The released footage after the 2017 New York Times story mirrors Lazar's descriptions of craft operation from 1989, raising questions about how he could have accurately predicted these characteristics.
If Bob Lazar's account is accurate, it suggests a small group within government possesses information about non-human intelligence that they withhold from the public. This raises questions about whether such secrecy constitutes a crime against humanity, given the obligation to inform people about visitors or dimensional travelers.
An alternative explanation suggests the technology might be human-created and classified for national security reasons, though this conflicts with Lazar's account of being asked to explain how the craft worked rather than improve existing technology.
Government disinformation campaigns have targeted individuals investigating UFO phenomena. Project Beta documents the case of Paul Bennewitz, who believed he intercepted alien communications and discovered Dulce Base, managed by aliens in cooperation with the US government. His claims appeared in the press during the early 1980s.
According to author Greg Valdez, Bennewitz was targeted for investigating cattle mutilations, which were actually part of government testing programs examining radiation effects from Project Gasbuggy, an underground atomic detonation 21 miles southwest of Dulce. The mutilations were allegedly testing cattle to avoid public panic about radiation.
Richard Doty has publicly acknowledged his role in intentionally placing misinformation into the public domain about UFOs. He worked on government programs studying UFOs, including ATIP. Doty's activities were known within the "invisible college" of researchers, and he was offered as an introduction to other investigators.
The government appears divided on UFO disclosure, with intelligence and counter-intelligence operations working against each other. When individuals release new UFO files or study them publicly, they often face counter-intelligence efforts designed to discredit them. The strategy involves hiding truth within a "circle of confusion" by attaching fantastic claims to legitimate information, making everything appear ridiculous.
Jacques Vallée wrote Wonders in the Sky to examine UFO phenomena before the industrial revolution, stopping around 1860. This historical approach reveals that aerial phenomena reports from the 1700s and 1800s mirror modern UFO encounters in pattern and description.
Initial academic work focused on Catholic beliefs about souls in purgatory and why the emphasis changed after the 1960s. Churches previously had dedicated spaces for these devotions. Research involved examining historical records and archives, many of which remain undigitized.
During this research, numerous accounts of aerial phenomena were discovered where people interpreted unusual sky objects as souls from purgatory that needed prayer intervention. These entities sometimes appeared as orbs that harassed people, interpreted as bad spirits.
A friend recognized the aerial phenomena logs as resembling Steven Spielberg films, prompting the transition to UFO research. Jacques Vallée was among the first contacted through written correspondence.
Despite exponential human technological advancement since the 1800s, UFO encounter descriptions remain remarkably consistent across centuries. This raises questions about whether the phenomenon operates differently than expected technological progression would suggest.
One hypothesis suggests that religion historically served as a communication interface with non-human intelligences, functioning as a form of technology itself. Prayer and religious practices may represent attempts at contact. AI could represent a new form of interface technology, as suggested by multiple government program participants who recommended science fiction reading that consistently pointed toward technology-mediated human interfaces with non-human intelligence.
Diana Pasulka explores the possibility that AI could function as a new perceptual faculty for humans, helping bridge gaps in how people understand reality. This concept suggests AI might evolve alongside humanity, serving as a communication tool for interacting with phenomena that currently exceed human perceptual limitations.
Pasulka argues that the government cannot disclose information about UAPs because the phenomenon exists "above government" and is not theirs to disclose. She suggests the information is held by compartmentalized groups rather than any single individual, with some aspects so highly classified that even presidents are not fully read into the programs.
After publishing American Cosmic in 2019, Pasulka met individuals associated with intelligence communities who suggested she focus on Catholic scholarship rather than UAP research. These individuals did not explicitly state reasons for their recommendation, but conveyed through their responses that the secrets would not be revealed to the public.
Pasulka references the documentary The Age of Disclosure and its argument that hidden UAP programs have misappropriated funds and lied to Congress. The documentary suggests amnesty would be necessary for disclosure, as participants fear prosecution for these activities.
Joe Rogan raises concerns that calls for amnesty might stem from individuals who have profited from these programs rather than legitimate national security concerns. He questions whether the amnesty requests are designed to protect against prosecution for misappropriated funds rather than genuine disclosure fears.
The discussion addresses the Pentagon's history of failing to pass audits, with billions of dollars unaccounted for. This lack of oversight creates environments where waste, fraud, and abuse become likely outcomes, particularly in highly classified programs with no congressional oversight.
The conversation references David Grush's allegations about secret UAP programs operating outside congressional oversight, claiming his investigation uncovered "slush funds" worth billions of dollars. The Pentagon has disputed these claims, and AARO has stated they found no verified evidence of extraterrestrial technology or reverse-engineered craft.
Rogan emphasizes that absolute power combined with massive funding, secrecy, and no oversight creates conditions where corruption becomes inevitable. The discussion explores how human nature and ambition might lead individuals in these programs to profit personally from their positions.
Pasulka describes maintaining autonomy from government-sponsored narratives and conducting her research independently without government sponsorship. She emphasizes that her work has been conducted completely on her own without publicists or institutional backing.
Pasulka recounts learning about highly classified government laboratories that the best scientists couldn't access, with personnel superior to those at Yale, Harvard, or Stanford. These laboratories were so restricted that even prominent researchers needed special access to visit them.
The discussion mentions Harold Malgrim, a Cornell physicist recruited at age 27 to serve as an official adviser to presidents with high-level security clearances. This example illustrates how the government recruits talented individuals into hidden programs, sometimes providing them with fake job titles to maintain secrecy.
In her book Encounters, Pasulka includes a chapter called "The Children of the Invisibles" that speculates about potential recruitment programs targeting young, talented physicists before they become involved in commercial ventures or other companies.
Eric Weinstein has pointed to Stony Brook University and its connection to Renaissance Technologies as a potential site for hidden programs. The university has an overqualified physics department that produces little public research while being attached to a hedge fund generating unusual financial returns.
Pasulka references knowing a university professor who was simultaneously a CIA operative, conducting dangerous operations including gunfights while maintaining his academic position. This illustrates how individuals can maintain dual roles in academic and covert government work.
The conversation explores the potential use of advanced propulsion technology for instantaneous nuclear weapon delivery systems. Instead of missiles traveling through space, the technology could fold space and time to deliver weapons instantaneously to any location, representing a significant escalation in military capabilities.
Pasulka recounts how intelligence community members explained their secrecy by emphasizing the need to prevent enemies like China, Russia, or Iran from obtaining advanced technology. They framed their work as essential for maintaining American safety and preventing adversaries from gaining technological advantages.
If the government is genuinely looking out for America's interests, there's support for keeping certain information classified. The concern is that revealing everything would simultaneously inform adversaries like China and Russia. There's acknowledgment that if the Roswell crash of 1947 was legitimate, with craft and material recovered and flown to Wright Air Force Base with Truman present, it would justify secrecy from a national security perspective.
Following the alleged 1947 incident, technologies like fiber optics and transistors emerged with unclear origins. The allegation is that these represent reverse-engineered extraterrestrial technology. If such technology exists and remains poorly understood, it makes sense to keep it classified, especially during ongoing international conflicts.
Lazar described the craft as appearing 3D printed, despite 3D printing technology not existing in 1989. The discussion notes that when examining historical timelines, the technology gap becomes problematic—moving from propeller planes in 1947 to craft capable of instantaneous travel from 50,000 feet to sea level in under a second, as recorded with the Tic Tac incident in 2004.
The Kenneth Arnold sighting occurred in 1947, just months before or after Roswell. Arnold's propeller plane was far slower than the craft he observed skipping across the sky at 1,000+ miles per hour. The discussion examines whether these could represent early reverse-engineered German technology from Operation Paperclip.
The Horten 229, a German prototype jet-powered flying wing from 1945, bears striking resemblance to Arnold's description. The aircraft reached 560-600 mph. The United States acquired German technology through Operation Paperclip, bringing Nazi scientists to work for NASA while overlooking their war crimes. The Horten 229's appearance aligns closely with what Arnold reported seeing.
Beyond the aircraft sighting, Arnold reported strange anomalous experiences including Men in Black encounters and paranormal phenomena that he interpreted through a religious framework.
When encountering advanced military aircraft like the stealth bomber in 2001, the technology appears so advanced it seems alien. This raises the possibility that similar craft existed earlier—perhaps in 1999, 1989, or 1979—before public acknowledgment.
The Tic Tac craft's movement would generate lethal G-forces for any human occupant, and no known materials could survive such velocities. Documents from disclosure dumps suggest Lockheed Martin may have created this technology. If Lockheed possessed such capabilities in 2004, the implications for classified military technology are significant.
Once stories become iconic—such as Betty and Barney Hill or Whitley Strieber's Communion—they enter folklore and shape public expectations. This creates a problem where people begin seeing what popular culture has primed them to expect rather than objective phenomena.
Tyler would present alleged UFO debris to engineers while claiming it originated from China or Russia, motivating them to reverse engineer foreign adversary technology. This psychological approach—telling engineers that something already exists and needs replication—appears to facilitate breakthroughs. The same principle applies to the four-minute mile: once believed achievable, multiple people achieved it.
Pasulka was asked to present the American Cosmic narrative to groups of 50 government scientists across agencies. The approach appears designed to shift mindsets by establishing that advanced technology already exists, thereby removing psychological barriers to innovation.
The Nazis possessed sophisticated propaganda capabilities beyond standard messaging. This technology could seed beliefs and alter population mindsets at scale. Bill Cooper's Behold a Pale Horse discusses "quiet weapons"—technology designed to engineer consent through media and narrative control.
College athletes were trained to visualize winning and were told that others had already achieved similar feats. This psychological approach demonstrates how belief in existing achievement facilitates performance breakthroughs.
Despite decades of military conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's no documented evidence of technology moving faster than light or weapons beyond conventional understanding being deployed. However, the Venezuelan conflict involved a documented incident where forces abducted a president while incapacitating personnel with sound weapons—technology that exceeds public understanding of capabilities.
Howe Putoff participated in a Bush administration exercise where scientists evaluated disclosure of alien craft and biological remains. All participants concluded negative impacts on government, religion, society, and economy outweighed positives, leading to non-disclosure decisions.
Reagan's UN speech discussed how a threat from another world would unite humanity. Disclosure would temporarily disrupt everything, causing collapse of the economy and global trust in government. If governments aren't truly in control and extraterrestrial life is influencing world events, this creates problems for democratic processes. People would question voting for congressmen who claim they can enact change when being observed by entities that can read minds.
Diana Pasulka believes people won't go into shock and will ultimately be alright, noting that JD Vance publicly stated UFOs are demons. Rogan argues that most people won't be shocked because 80% of Americans already believe in God, a non-human intelligence, and that God could have created life elsewhere. The Vatican has addressed this, stating that if alien life exists, God could have created it on other planets.
Pasulka notes that in countries like Brazil, people would accept aliens watching them without being upset. Rogan represents a minority view that disclosure would change everything, while Pasulka believes the 80% won't have their worldview altered.
Rogan's concern about superior intelligence controlling events, like stopping nuclear weapons, represents a religious worldview. Most religions already assume non-human intelligences exist - gods, goddesses, angels, demons. The Book of Enoch describes Watchers who came down and bred with the daughters of men, creating the Nephilim. This book is not in the biblical canon but Enoch is referenced in the Bible.
Anna Paulina Luna introduced Rogan to the Book of Enoch, which he has listened to twice. Over 50% of Christians believe in the worldview of Enoch - watchers, fallen angels, and supernatural elements - even though the book itself isn't widely taught.
When reading biblical stories, context is lost through translation from ancient Hebrew to Latin, Greek, and other languages. In ancient Hebrew, letters double as numbers, creating coded numerical meanings. The Ethiopian Bible includes the Book of Enoch and represents one of the earliest continuous forms of Christianity, though no real English translation is readily available.
Paul wrote about women wearing veils in church because of angels that might be attracted to them. This practice continues in traditional Catholic masses. The early Christian church was immersed in the supernatural worldview that persists today. Pasulka believes the Book of Enoch conveys the spirit of truth even if the stories aren't literal accounts of real events.
The stories of Watchers and Nephilim sound like primitive explanations of genetic engineering of human beings. Pasulka notes that her views have changed since studying UFOs. Before her research, she was a practicing Catholic who went to daily mass, but graduate school made her more secular in her approach.
Pasulka converted to Christianity at age 11 after watching Franco Zepharelli's Jesus of Nazareth on TV during Easter. The scene where Jesus prevents the adulterous woman from being stoned captivated her. She asked her mother for a Bible and specifically wanted a red-letter King James version to read everything Jesus said. This led to her decision to become a professor of religion to understand the original languages and contexts.
She attended a Sisters of Mercy Catholic high school where she learned Catholicism through action and helping people. Her father eventually returned to religion because of her influence.
Catholics don't believe in biblical literalism because the Bible contains contradictions. They believe it is the inspired word of God written by men, with fallibility in conveying morals and the spirit of Christianity. Pasulka's UFO research reinforced her Catholicism rather than undermining it, recognizing that many current UFO experiences resemble the preternatural encounters described in ancient texts.
Pasulka has had experiences she doesn't feel comfortable discussing publicly. A family member had a documented UFO encounter near Folsom Lake involving an orange orb that was witnessed by multiple people and covered in a contemporary newspaper. She grew up in an area known for UFO activity.
Her personal experiences are the normal experiences of a believing Christian - things happening at the right time, events outlined in the Book of Acts. She doesn't discuss them because people who haven't had similar experiences dismiss them as coincidence.
As a religious studies professor at a secular university, Pasulka doesn't advocate for belief systems or discuss personal experiences. Her teaching focuses on historical and social context rather than whether experiences are real. She has discussed her experiences on Christian podcasts but maintains professional boundaries in academic settings.
Pasulka has not had UFO abduction experiences and doesn't wish to have them, noting that such encounters appear traumatic. Life is already difficult enough without adding that kind of experience. When asked about psionics and ritualistic practices for manifesting orbs, she believes people are genuinely doing something through these practices.
A friend of Diana's has described a method for contacting beings that involves following specific protocols, and claims that if done properly with sufficient time, these beings will appear. The friend learned this technique from someone else and has done it both in group settings and alone. Diana initially responded with skepticism, comparing the requirement of giving permission to vampire lore and demonic traditions.
Diana values cognitive sovereignty and believes people should remain sovereign without having something interact with them mentally and spiritually. She has observed that many people who contact these beings emphasize the need to give them permission first. Joe initially expressed interest in trying the technique but reconsidered after learning about the permission requirement.
Diana believes people having psychedelic experiences are genuinely encountering entities. She describes psychedelics as a quick but dangerous way to open up the spiritual part of the brain. She notes that religious protocols are designed to cultivate the spiritual sense, which helps humans connect to the sacred. Digital culture interferes with this spiritual sense.
The Native American Church uses psychedelics as their sacred method, but Diana warns that doing it casually without proper attention may be dangerous. She had positive experiences with mushrooms when young but believes she was lucky, as some friends had terrible experiences.
Bad psychedelic experiences often occur when people fight the experience and try to maintain control. The ego interferes when people attempt to battle with the experience and regain control over their consciousness. Those who can let go and surrender to the experience tend to have better outcomes, while those who resist and fight have bad trips.
The fundamental issue is battling something that cannot be beaten. People must understand they're not in control and let go completely. Resistance stems from fear of the unknown and reluctance to have one's belief system eroded or view of reality expanded.
The Shroud of Turin was previously discussed on the podcast. The 1988 radiocarbon dating used a repaired section of fabric, though this explanation is disputed online. The pollen on the fibers matches plants that existed in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. No conventional explanation accounts for how the image was created as a reverse negative image that only becomes visible when viewed as a negative.
A hematologist who is not religious studied the blood and injuries on the shroud and found they match crucifixion wounds. Father Dalton, a Catholic priest, provides detailed analysis of the various studies while acknowledging what remains unknown.
The tilma is a cloak from the 1500s bearing an image of the Virgin Mary that allegedly appeared miraculously on Juan Diego's cloak. The bishop demanded proof of the apparition, so Juan Diego was instructed to gather out-of-season flowers in his cloak. When opened before the bishop, the image appeared on the cloak.
The original image exists beneath later additions - the cloak is made of agave plant fibers, and the original image appears to come from the fibers themselves rather than paint. Art historians use infrared photography to identify layers, showing the original image existed before later embellishments were painted around it.
Conventional explanations claim the shroud image was created through medieval painting with red ochre and vermilion pigments in a gelatin collagen tempera binder. Other theories include rubbing or boss relief transfer techniques, and acid scorch or chemical staining methods.
The 1988 radiocarbon dating by labs at Oxford, Arizona, and Zurich dated the flax to 1260-1390 CE, placing it in the medieval period consistent with its documented appearance in Lirey around 1355.
Proponents argue the C4 sample came from a repair patch added later. The blood stains are claimed to be real human blood applied before the image formed. No reproduction fully matches the image's properties, including the superficial 200 nanometer 3D encoded distance information and absence of brush strokes.
Diana believes the shroud is authentic based on analysis from the hematologist and her friend who witnessed the Duke University study. She acknowledges her belief could change with new contradictory data.
The Shroud of Turin is housed in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy, where it has been since 1578.
Diana recently published a book called "The Others" that covers topics discussed on the podcast, including religion, the spiritual sense, AI, and a theory about ET encounters. Her theory suggests that advanced technology, rather than extraterrestrial beings, may be what people encounter when they believe they're meeting aliens.
Diana Pasulka discusses how advanced AI technology could potentially reach a point where it becomes a life form itself. She references a specific theory that she identifies as Hill Josnut rap science, which begins as a theory about AI but ultimately develops into a theory about extraterrestrial intelligence.
Joe Rogan mentions his recollection of this law and notes that the theory ends up being essentially a theory of ET. He shares his feeling that life eventually stops being biological and becomes digital, suggesting this might explain what people are encountering when they have unexplained experiences.
Pasulka confirms this interpretation, stating that her book The Others includes one or two chapters about this exact concept. The discussion highlights how digital consciousness could represent the next evolutionary stage beyond biological life.
Pasulka's book The Others: UFO AI and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny is highlighted. Rogan asks whether Pasulka recorded the audiobook herself or used an actor, and she confirms she narrated it personally. Both agree that author-narrated audiobooks are superior.
Rogan expresses appreciation for Pasulka's earlier book American Cosmic. They discuss the possibility of future conversations, with Pasulka indicating her next book will likely focus on Christianity. The conversation concludes with mutual appreciation and plans to continue their discussions.
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