Joe Rogan Experience #2465 - Michael Shellenberger
In a Nutshell
Michael Shellenberger and Joe Rogan analyze Trump's aggressive foreign policy shifts—strikes on Iran, regime pressure in Venezuela—marking the end of the post-WWII rules-based order, amid concerns over terror threats, WWIII risks, and Trump's independent decision-making ignoring think tanks. They critique U.S. domestic failures like California's $24B homeless industrial complex enabling addiction and death, open borders as a Democratic voter strategy, chaotic ICE deportations sparking organized protests, and progressive "pathological altruism" eroding civilization. The discussion pivots to UAP disclosure (Trump's promises, ancient spiritual parallels, counterintelligence hoaxes), Epstein files revealing creepy codes and no clear intelligence ties (leaning suicide despite lapses), urging humility before mysteries like Tic-Tac encounters and biblical entities.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Michael Shellenberger discusses crazy world events, including war breaking out. Joe Rogan asks about feelings on President Trump. Shellenberger occasionally texts with Trump and receives Truth Social posts. On the Iran situation, neither Shellenberger nor Rogan saw it coming. US national security strategy in November stated they degraded Iran’s capacity, calling it a win with no additional action planned. This ushers in a new paradigm; post-war rules-based order is over. Mark Carney, Prime Minister of Canada, articulated at World Economic Forum that older rules-based order is gone. AOC tried articulating it at Munich Security Conference in February but fell apart.
Trump administration not clearly pursuing regime change but asserting American power in service of American interests. Doesn’t care much about outcomes in Iran or Venezuela. Venezuela: wanted Maduro out forever; he stole election, was dictator; clean operation to kidnap and remove him. Tel Aviv: massive destruction, fake videos circulating on X (insane bombs dropping); Grok dismantles fakes. Rubio said acted because Israel would act anyway; Netanyahu visited White House often. Trump in charge, making decisions independently—no one pulling strings (not Russians, Israelis). Elon gave $250 million but Trump denied electric car credit. Lesson: Trump independent. No second-order thinking; foreign policy establishment, think tanks irrelevant. Won’t return even under Gavin Newsom or AOC. Europeans, Canadian PM realizing different world.
Doesn’t make sense unless acting on Israel’s interests. Iran’s nuclear capacity supposedly dismantled, but Trump unsatisfied with negotiations, flipped table to replace negotiator—Art of the Deal. Democrats too patient; Trump impatient. Not clearly for regime change. Betrayal of campaign promise against stupid senseless wars; ran on no more wars but against endless wars. Iraq promised six weeks by Rumsfeld. Ground forces not ruled out. Venezuela criticized: how to run it? Realization: not trying to run it, just take over oil—but oil not significant globally, nightmare to extract (Amazon, heavy oil needs heating, gorilla conflict). As conservationist, last place for oil.
Nothing makes sense about Iran attack. Old system required UN Security Council, Congress approval—gone. Trump acting because not getting negotiation results, using leverage. Israel wanted it but has own motivations. Trump independent; denied Elon battery subsidy despite largest contributor. Never seen politician act so independently. Skeptical of influences despite war hawks, Netanyahu; Tucker Carlson also advising. No evidence Russians or Israelis control him—been through too much. Trump long criticized Democrats’ IAEA-approved approach; Iran has international law right to nuclear energy, facilities, centrifuges, enrichment (no specified level). Iran wants nuclear weapons; cat-and-mouse game. Obama lifted sanctions for controls; Trump disagreed for 10+ years pre-2016.
Leaked transmission discusses activation of Iranian terror cells. Concerns Iranian suicide bombers or worse in US. Border wide open four years; Middle Easterners got through, heavy artillery possible. Terrorists do damage with simple rifles (e.g., French club attack: machine guns killed dozens vs. bombs killing one-two). Majority Americans against due to endless war, terror fears. Tense globally: Gaza, Ukraine; feels like entering World War III. Iran attacked UAE, Dubai—expected, makes Iran isolated.
Reagan pushed back against communism, challenged containment for regime change, moral argument, defense buildup—helped bring down communism. Iranian regime evil; courageous protests crushed (thousands killed). People radical; 1979 Shah modernizing (wealth, inequality, repression) but radicals wanted Islamist regime. Current regime unpopular but opposition not united. 1979: left-Islamists allied, held Ayatollah pictures; promises to left betrayed for hardline regime. No unified opposition figure in Iran, Venezuela, Cuba. Old establishment had Machado for Venezuela; Trump dismissed her for lack of support. Symbolic calls to rise up, no material support. Berlin Wall fell peacefully via moral collapse, vibes. Iranians prepared, dug in; son of IRGC leader rallying around flag. May negotiate Trump’s terms: keep killing leaders until deal.
Trump listens to Tucker, Yahoo, decides—ignores think tanks, white papers, State Department. Realm of chaos: does it work, moral, better outcomes? AI powering autonomous weapons. Anthropic hesitant with DoD; OpenAI head of autonomous weapons (woman) quit days ago. Sam Altman, Elon on board with DoD; Anthropic broke, Hexath to punish. Consistent with Trump nationalist vision: security, economic, border, industrial, trade strategy unified—assert power/leverage or managed decline. Mixed minds: invest home (Skid Row), avoid regime change/bombing; other hand thinks
There's something right about defending the West, Western civilization, institutions, norms, and liberal values. Nobody has done that. The previous administration opened borders and gave a blank check to Ukraine. Trump takes responsibility, unlike Biden who deferred to allies and the cathedral (media, think tanks, academics, per Curtis Yarvin). Trump asserts strength for the working class, demanding better returns on investments in protecting allies. This asserts why the West is special and needs defense.
Is bombing Iran, replacing the command with his son in Mashhad, or actions in Venezuela the right approach? Unsure. The system was failing: the open society system of tolerance became intolerant and totalitarian, creating a censorship industrial complex, weaponizing intelligence communities, entering unclear conflicts like Ukraine. Ukraine war continues only because of US arming; cutting a deal at current borders could end it. Trump annoyed with Putin but no interest in continuing the war, not in interest of working-class Americans.
Same questions for Iran, Venezuela, Cuba. This is a different paradigm from 1945-2024.
Idea of tolerance under last administration is a narrative, a strategy to keep borders open, increase populations in blue states, raise census counts, gain congressional seats, path to citizenship for permanent voters. Wrapped in Medicaid fraud now surfacing.
NY Times piece on why Biden left borders open: he's out of it, no clear decision; Cecilia Munoz (moderate advocate in administration) said Biden wanted to give the left what they wanted, advocated by Soros think tanks and progressive immigration groups. Same on climate. Elon talks importing voters, but unclear if strategy works.
Latinos not assumed all vote Democrat; if on Medicaid and Social Security, numbers shift. Latinos thrive better than mostly Muslim immigrants in Europe, who have higher crime and social services use.
David Shor (top Democrat pollster) to Ezra Klein post-2024: if all eligible voters voted, Trump wins by 3 points vs 1.5. Republicans try making voting harder (mail-in), but mail-in always vector for fraud, goes back decades.
California laws: no ID to vote, opens door for fraud. Narrative poor people lack Xerox machines (Kamala Harris). Video: liberals at UC Berkeley say no ID because black people don't have IDs; then in Harlem/black NYC neighborhood, everyone has ID.
Three years of needing ID for vaccines (work, planes, restaurants), contradicting no-ID voting. Left wanted to control behavior.
Progressives: no barriers to voting like Jim Crow, little fraud. ID is insurance you're a citizen voting. Most citizens have or can get ID; reasonable to prove identity for president.
Supports ID, but Republicans may get unpredictable outcomes; Trump motivates reluctant voters, fed up with last four years, especially open borders (10 million people, 10x Austin, unknown identities).
Americans supported closing borders, but support dropped for deportations (raids at Home Depot, restaurants, houses; militarized masked police uncomfortable).
New ICE: 7 weeks training, $50k signing bonus, giant percentage Latino (e.g., two Latinos shot guy in Minnesota).
Minnesota with Alex Frey: clusterfuck. Narrative: accidental discharge as pulling gun away, chaos leads to shooting him.
Multiple law enforcement mistakes expected. Woman shot: officer dragged 300 ft weeks prior, PTSD when car comes at him; shouldn't have been on duty. Reaction heartless, including administration (Christine Gnomes resigned?).
Protests organized, paid, not organic; distraction from hundreds of millions in fraud. Paid protesters given money, signs, Signal groups, doxxing ICE (license plates, hotels); local cops stand down, chaos.
Mike Benz: mathematical, organized protests + untrained ICE + chaos + street support = incidences, shots fired, moves needle against deporting illegals. Kills support for deporting all vs just violent criminals.
Narratives: only 14% violent criminals arrested, but 60% criminals—what definition? OK if they rip people off?
Left in Minneapolis radical (long tradition, not just Midwestern). Alex Frey should have been arrested days prior with gun, altercation; judge could take gun, restraining order.
Frey carried Sig P320, notorious for accidental discharges (lawsuits, videos of cops' guns firing in holsters). Video analysis: officer removes gun, fingers on slide not trigger, appears to fire (matches sound). Glock wouldn't, but Sig does.
Videos: manipulating slide fires without trigger; lighter trigger pre-2017, no internal safety like others; Sig P365 reliable, not known for this. Range video: gun fires in holster, instructor says get Sig off range.
Frey reckless: kicked ICE tail light, gun in waistband hidden by jacket, intervened in altercation. Suicide by cop? ICE shoved woman (not arrest?), Frey intervenes, pepper spray.
Frey should have filmed; cameras everywhere. Not nonviolent tradition (Gandhi, King); organized paid protests, radicalized by narratives, social media, bot farms, AI slop on X muddies discourse, radicalizes.
Frey troubled, mental health issues, life mess, adopts cause as binary good vs fascists.
Civil rights well-organized but not paid, not social media jobs; now unemployed paid protesters via left-wing NGO sector (gov/Soros funded), civil disobedience on free time (e.g., SF homelessness).
Problem: Minneapolis organization aimed to cause chaos (unlike civil rights desegregating counters, affirming liberal democracy; blacks wanted in).
Now: open borders, defund police, attack institutions—radicalized left.
Gad Saad's suicidal empathy: disagrees, not suicidal or empathic (applies to progressive ideas). Rule of law needed for safe society; no cash bail, release criminals creates chaos for more control.
Not empathic to victims, allowing violent crime.
They hate Western civilization, the United States of America, and capitalism. It's an anti-civilization motivation. MSNBC watchers may feel bad for individuals, but people complaining about ICE don't know illegal immigrants personally beyond superficial interactions like servers, gardeners, or maids. Empathy requires deep understanding of someone's situation. Progressive policies like open borders, enabling addiction, euthanizing poor and mentally ill people in Canada, or transitioning kids hurt people and lack true empathy. Those promoting them are full of themselves and arrogant. Pathological altruism in San Francisco resembles Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Affirming this risks progressives rationalizing failure: "If the homeless are worse off, it's because we care so much."
California's homeless budget is insane: $24 billion spent with no accountability, vetoed audits, and homelessness increases. Service providers claim success because they serve more people yearly, but wrong incentives create homelessness. Funding grows with more homeless people; eliminating it ends the jobs and money. San Francisco spends $100,000-$120,000 per homeless person annually; LA around $25,000. This doesn't include California's $24 billion. Money goes to single resident occupancy hotel owners, nonprofits providing food, alcohol, and drug paraphernalia, enabling street living, overdoses, and deaths. It's expensive to kill people this way. Kolan Noir learned in San Francisco that some make $4 million yearly managing homelessness, yet conditions worsen with no incentive to improve and no audits.
"Permanent supportive housing" is propaganda: neither permanent nor supportive, it's warehousing addicts who die at high rates in crummy single resident occupancy rooms. Motels converted for low-income use, but money should fund centralized addiction and psychiatric care. Instead, it incentivizes street living, hard drug use, overdoses, and death. Proper incentives would pay based on reducing homelessness, but that risks ending the business.
Service providers view homeless as victims of white supremacy and capitalism, deserving everything given, nothing required. Monthly paychecks from the homeless industrial complex incentivize perpetuating the problem. They rationalize bigger budgets as success. San Francisco is a sick society, as titled in the book San Francisco Sicko. Once an amazing city with outdoor music, great restaurants, intelligent open-minded people. In 2016, homelessness existed but not an epidemic of tents and feces everywhere. Joe Rogan lived there ages 7-11 during Vietnam War; filmed Netflix special in 2016. Now fallen apart in 10 years, though slightly better under new mayor.
Security guard for mayor pulled down by homeless man, bodyslammed on concrete. Guard incompetent, no jiu-jitsu skills, let guy grab him without response. Mayor walked away nonchalantly then ran for help. Guard initiated by pushing guy, poor choice outnumbered. Chaos with others around. Metaphor for city's dysfunction: both parties nonchalant. Different angle shows mayor running off. Why engage? Guard should've escorted mayor away.
Society has security problems. ICE agents poorly trained (7 weeks), emotionally out of control, shoving small woman. Trump administration made bad choices. ICE signing bonus $50,000, possibly over 4 years or in 10 payments (90 days then yearly for 4 years). Attracts people with no options. Police shortages pre-2020, worsened post-COVID and after mayors called them evil; many resigned when Trump elected. People need respect in high-risk jobs beyond money; mistreatment adds risks, as in Minneapolis chaos. Community appreciation vital; anti-policing signals civilization decline.
ICE raids differ from policing violent crimes; progressive narrative: no one's illegal on stolen land, open borders, immigrants foundational. Trump administration picked fight in left-wing city to expose left's craziness but backfired. Raids targeted illegal immigrant fraud in Minneapolis (hundreds of millions, exposed by Nick Shirley videos). Strategy: show of force for self-deportation publicity to scare illegals out. Claim 1.4-3 million self-deported, plus 400,000-600,000 via normal channels; limited deportation capacity. Avoid E-Verify to not upset agricultural, construction lobbies dependent on illegal labor, creating protected underclass. Left once called unchecked immigration a right-wing Koch brothers plot to lower wages for citizens, avoiding benefits costs.
Left balanced open society (Soros view: free movement prevents persecutions like Holocaust) with working-class/union concerns over wage suppression. Democrats divided; Hillary/Obama in 2008 debated driver's licenses, both opposed mass migration. Now working-class Republicans unified on closed borders restricting low-skill labor supply. Trump changed dynamics; Democrats unlikely to revert to mass migration advocacy despite ignoring public opinion favoring closed borders.
Biden admin flew/bused migrants to swing states to juice congressional seats via census (though California lost seats due to poor governance). Blue state governors welcoming, but purposeful. California pushes laws driving people out: billionaires like David Sacks to Austin, Mark Zuckerberg to Florida, rumors of Steven Spielberg leaving. Gas near $8/gallon; refiners shutting down. Billionaires tax is SEIU (healthcare workers union like nurses) initiative. Progressive talking heads demand fair share despite waste/fraud, rejecting accountability; propose $30 billion more for homeless. Intellectually lazy: corrupt incompetent government wants more money, no evidence it helps.
Radical left unions push for Medicaid funding for undocumented immigrants. Powerful unions change laws easily, exemplified by the Curley effect—Boston mayor Curley made conditions so bad for political opponents that they left, consolidating his power. When moderate Democrats move to Austin, Miami, or Denver, California locks into a progressive agenda. Despite appeal, most tolerate new policies. Tech community now backs San Jose mayor Matt Mahan, a moderate Democrat critical of Gavin Newsom, running for governor.
Tech community woke up politically in 2024 after Biden administration threatened AI development, as Marc Andreessen discussed. Previously leaned Democrat since Obama era or stayed out of politics. Concern over George Soros' dominance prompts hope for counterbalancing billionaire influence. Chasing out billionaires leaves remaining ones to fund change, but no clear pathway for California turnaround soon due to momentum toward taxing more amid corrupt, fraud-ridden government.
Things that can't go on won't. Potential fixes: Matt Mahan as governor, Rick Caruso for LA mayor again after Karen Bass' failures. LA fires preventable; fire department report listed undone actions, mayor chooses fire chief. Bass warned but flew to Ghana junket instead of commanding headquarters—Gavin Newsom or Schwarzenegger should have stepped in. Past mobilizations used planes full of water pre-fires. Failures: pipes not big enough excuse invalid; maintain reservoirs, air-gap pipes to avoid contamination, station engines properly. No responsibility taken.
New governor, better LA mayor, San Francisco's current mayor has potential despite casual walk-away criticism from latest chaos video. Tech billionaires capable of financing alternatives. 75% of San Francisco voters want arrests for public fentanyl use—voters not radical left, just Trump-deranged. Candidates like Caruso, Mahan can say they hate Trump. People seen policy consequences; San Francisco improved with broken-up encampments, now smaller nests instead of block-wide ones like Oakland or Skid Row.
Oakland unsavable after voting wrong mayor. Video shows stark contrast driving across county line. Similar Venice vs. Santa Monica: tents in Venice, cleaned in Santa Monica. Venice cleaned up quickly, voters fired radical council member (Chess Bodin level) for moderate. Beaches no longer chaotic. Skid Row 50 blocks of tents and homeless—enormous area. Influencers shocked on first visits; conservative ones like Ben Shapiro react. Comic from Comedy Store went undercover ~2006, filmed encampment life. Skid Row history: contained problematic homeless from Beverly Hills/Hollywood, grew over time.
Similar to San Francisco's Tenderloin: cheap hotels for temporary workers, some cage-like, evolved to subsidized homeless housing. California rescuable with Trump-like change via social media enabling accurate info. Oakland hopeless, though Jerry Brown once improved it—governance key.
Gay Republican video mocks SF Transit refusing crime surveillance videos to avoid 'racial bias' against minorities. Recurring crime theme implied. Similar to European countries like Germany, UK initially withholding stats, now released.
Trump commits to releasing UAP files. Amazing after decades of denial (Project Blue Book shutdown). Obama acknowledged aliens, not at Area 51 (hiding from presidents theory). Trump grinned about declassifying after Obama slip. Theater or distraction, but pushes transparency like 1970s Church Committee post-Watergate.
Epstein, JFK, Amelia Earhart files released (some missing); UFO files next—not everything, but progress eases more releases. Respect John Greenewald (blackvault.com), FOIA requests since mid-90s as teen. Identified redacted UAP Task Force doc: potential explanations (1st/3rd redacted, 2nd natural phenomenon)—unredact those, not sensor data.
Pentagon released Russian jet dumping fuel on US drone video recently—proves they release sensor data sometimes. More Gimbal, Go Fast, Tic Tac video exists (Tic Tac moves out of frame); much more sensor data from incidents. UAP community should specify demands: Rep. Nancy Mace open letter lists documents/videos.
Age of Disclosure points: real issues are misappropriation of funds, lying to Congress, fraud in black ops/back-engineering by military contractors (e.g., Rocketdyne). Competitors sue over exclusive access; missing funds ($100M checks, $2.3B) without oversight. Jesse Michels' video with Eric Weinstein, Eric Davis (bushy beard, Age of Disclosure, Bigelow/AAWSAP/ATIP scientist) questions thin answers on reverse-engineering program size/people.
Skepticism on reverse-engineering: nuclear took thousands, huge enterprise—hard to hide new propulsion bureaucracy since 1950s (Jesse's theory). Too many deathbed confession opportunities. Government contractors keep secrets well. UAP Task Force from AATIP interested, listed potential explanations—suggests no full access/knowledge. AARO like Blue Book: debunks, cherry-picks explainable cases. Insiders mumble on specifics. Aligns with Jacques Vallée: phenomenon real (more photos/videos), but unknown—no secret program provable that long. Keep close watch on anyone with knowledge.
Keep a close watch on anyone with access to sensitive materials, which would be threatening, like Bob Lazar. Joe Rogan believes Bob Lazar and notes he has maintained the same story consistently. Michael Shellenberger agrees Lazar is not a liar but is unsure what he worked on. They discuss demanding specific documents from certain places and years related to Lazar's claims.
Bob Lazar believes some documents he saw were fake, planted as a hook for counterintelligence. Fake narratives allow the government to identify leaks: if someone mentions the planted story, they can trace it to a specific program, narrowing down suspects among employees.
MJ-12 documents include an incredible manual on extraterrestrial crash retrieval with different morphologies. Most ufologists consider it a forgery or hoax, but it's sophisticated, referencing old library books with checkout names. The level of detail suggests government creation as passage material for detecting counterintelligence activities.
Government uses UAP as cover for secret weapons programs to distract attention, but this attracts more interest than standard secrecy protocols. Examples include US Air Force making Paul Bennewitz crazy by feeding him alien attack info over Kirtland Air Force Base, and Richard Doty. Book and documentary Mirage Men detail this. Skeptics claim it covered secret weapons, but it seems counterproductive as it draws attention.
Skeptic view: combination of government disinformation, sci-fi, dreams, hypnagogic states, and power of belief. New book on Barney and Betty Hill attributes their story to stress as an interracial couple, nightmares, and hypnosis confabulation. Questions why government would involve itself in such stories like Betty and Barney Hill or MJ-12.
Richard Doty and Paul Bennewitz cases at Kirtland Air Force Base: why respond to strange observations with alien narratives? AJ Gentile documented military disinformation around crop circles in Britain.
Crop circles seem man-made with boards, but some show woven wheat, exploded nodes like microwaved, no footprints, geometric precision, football field-sized Mandelbrot sets. Eyewitnesses flew over empty areas, returned hours later to massive formations like the Julia set near Stonehenge.
Precision scales fractally; difficult to reproduce without time, multiple people, tools for measuring and interweaving. Mark Pilkington (author of Mirage Men) and John Lundberg claim to have created all crop circles. AJ Gentile accuses Lundberg of being British intelligence (circumstantial: website mentions MI5/CIA, school near MI5 training area). Pilkington denies military intelligence ties.
Massive crop circles shown; Pilkington denies exploded nodes and interweaving, but AJ and Science magazine article note exploded nodes. No evidence of trampling or equipment; no one caught making them. Pi crop circle visually represents pi with sophisticated design.
MIT researchers tried replicating but failed to match quality.
Jacques Vallee books highlight old stories from 1700s-1800s lacking spaceship context but matching modern descriptions, e.g., Zimbabwe story. Possibilities: outer space origin or ancient entity hidden from view.
Alien messages always promote environmental protection and avoiding nuclear war. Anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann (Stanford) studies religions, practices revealing realities. Fieldwork with modern witches in England led to anomalous experiences: five druids in her room, energy surge stopping her watch.
Emphasizes practices over beliefs; agnostic on reality of experiences.
Recurring theme: intention and calling out to entities produces sky phenomena. Prophet Yahweh (black man) conjures orbs on camera with ABC newscaster; orb appears as he prays, moves fast toward Nellis Air Force Base, returns, disappears. Newscaster calls boss: story changed unexpectedly. Reuters covered similar with white guy; multiple witnesses.
Jake Barber (ex-special forces helicopter contractor) announced conjuring and downing UFOs.
"I pray, oh Yahweh, that you send a sighting so that they know that I am not mentally ill."
Vallee's control system evolves human consciousness, manifesting culturally relevant phenomena: Fatima apparitions, 19th-century airships resembling Zeppelins pre-invention. Sounds like God or higher life form monitoring humanity.
William James (Varieties of Religious Experience, 1902): something more beyond material world. Denial is hubris.
British woman in 1950s interviewed about Mexican hat UFO over house; ridiculed by village despite witnesses.
UFO believers rarely cause harm (one cult exception: Heaven's Gate, castration then suicide). They are dreamy, spiritual seekers reminding us of mystery and humility.
Commander David Fravor encountered tic-tac object hovering over underwater disturbance, accelerating from 50,000 feet to sea level in under a second (energy exceeding US annual output), no heat signature, documented on radar, video, visually. Meticulous, intelligent Navy pilot with stellar record.
Novel experiences demand belief; dismissing without personal encounter is easy but ignores evidence and witness credibility. Fravor's face shows spiritual awe, like temple visitors experiencing wonder.
We're on this beautiful planet we don't fully understand, and that's spiritual. The entity showed dominance in that environment—technological or spiritual dominance. It's special and won't go away. The government likely doesn't know the full answer, even with contact.
The government has acquired eyewitness video, radar, and sensor data from multiple UAP instances. They're assessing what it is through longstanding studies, which would be disturbing, confusing, and disruptive to society.
During the Bush administration, they brought in Hal Puthoff and other scientists and thinkers to create a chart: positive aspects of disclosure on one side, negative ramifications on the other (government, religion, finances). Negatives outweighed positives, so they decided not to disclose. Premise: they have physical crafts not of this world, biological entities not of this world, and are part of a back-engineering program. Conclusion: chaos.
Trump didn't follow that checklist. He ignores memos from experts. If in office, someone influential like Tucker could convince him to release it for favor.
Laura Trump, trusted family member who took over RNC to install loyalists, said she heard noise about Trump administration considering disclosure but dismissed it as untrusted sources. She's credible, not speculating. Then Obama was asked, and Trump announced. Pushing intelligence community privately went nowhere.
Obama's response was odd: no follow-up questions, in a speed round. He said aliens are real, but next day clarified theoretically life in universe. He told a late-night host (Kimmel or Colbert) there's things he can't tell. Trump said he knows more but won't tell.
Tucker thinks UAP are angels and demons from the Bible, always here. Book of Enoch, original biblical text excluded from canon by rabbis as it didn't jive with Torah, found in Dead Sea Scrolls with Book of Isaiah. Describes Watchers from above mating with humans, creating Nephilim giants who destroy and consume everything.
Wes Huff, historian of biblical texts, notes it's crazy it was excluded. Imagine church covering Book of Enoch and Watchers.
Dead Sea Scroll Book of Isaiah predates oldest known version by over 1,000 years, verbatim identical, found in same caves as Book of Enoch.
Religions and myths aren't just false hallucinations or lies—arrogant to think last 150 years figured it all out, dismissing prior human knowledge. History is far older than thought; 4-5,000-year-old stories retell far older ones. Oral traditions predate writing; stories relayed generations, then written, studied literally, translated (Aramaic, ancient Hebrew to Latin, Greek, English). Question: original experience, important knowledge they documented? Ultimate truth despite distortions?
Jesus Christ's story fascinating: teachings beneficial over natural instincts and tribal behavior—no flaws. Unlike religions with torturing non-believers, raping infidels. Christianity: forgiveness, treat neighbor as yourself. Beautiful way to live.
Rogan goes to church last 3-4 years; churchgoers most polite, kind people—lets you out of parking lot. Works. Following Jesus's teachings leads to better life. Doesn't require believing miracles like resurrection or parting Red Sea—likely generational stories with truth.
Book of Ezekiel: wheel within a wheel, fire flashing, gleaming metal, four living creatures darting like lightning. What experience?
Tucker links to UFO experiences.
Christian story beautiful, important. René Girard: Christianity stops scapegoating cycle (uniting community by blaming, sacrificing goat or person carrying sins). Jesus scapegoated; says stop—"he without sin cast first stone." Not condoning sin, but no scapegoating.
Radical: first universal religion, everyone child of God, evangelical. Unlike tribal gods.
Terrible acts under Christianity guise not following Jesus's teachings—human behavior tagged on. Anti-Semitism not Christian.
Hopes for revival; more young people into Christianity now. UFO awareness of higher power fosters humility before gigantic mystery.
Jesus: insanely wise, no vengeance/lust/greed. Love enemies—hardest, right aspiration.
Secular narrative: no spiritual realm, just mental illness. Atheists often unhappy/depressed; psychedelics lead to "maybe there's a God"—divine wisdom/love. Study, integrate as source of religious experiences.
Psychedelics detach from ego/ideas/beliefs—career of correcting wrongs. Humility before higher power key; souls undiscussed. Care for own/others' souls: divine inside connected outside, behaviors affect it.
"Meat suit, worm food, random/pointless" terrible story. Charlie Kirk videos post-death: told OnlyFans women God loves you, has purpose—lovely, not condemning.
Anthropologist: harder to believe in transcendent God (Holocaust, evil problem). Christians struggle with faith. Answer: free will to realize moral potential.
Church talks prompt: real experience behind tales? Not nothing—something real. Live as Christian: better, love-filled, peaceful life. Better than fairy tales dismissal—if method works, real.
Leap of faith needed; Revelations weird (Jesus on white horse). Some think Iran lights signal fire for Jesus's return. NCOs in combat briefings heard: tell troops this part of God's plan.
Anti-apocalyptic; focusing on Revelations leads to bad outcomes. Most Christians ignore it.
A combat readiness briefing speaker urged troops that events were part of God's plan, citing the Book of Revelation on Armageddon and Jesus Christ's imminent return. He claimed President Trump was anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran for Armageddon. The speaker had a giant smile, making it weirder. Multiple complaints led to a lawsuit under religious freedom law. This risks a self-fulfilling prophecy. Discussion questions what weapons or machines such individuals control. There are many religious extremists in the military. This is not how Jesus Christ would handle it—bombing Iran to bring his return.
Michael Shellenberger changed his position after reviewing the Epstein files. He believes shrimp is a code word for young women, 95% sure, as proven in his piece. Pizza and grape soda also appeared suspicious; Epstein's urologist said take erectile dysfunction pills then get pizza and grape soda, which is creepy. His co-author Alex stopped full Pizzagate inclusion. The New York Times mentioned pizza, so he posted on X but took it down due to uncertainty. Other theories like jerky meaning cannibalism are skeptical, despite restaurant names like Cannibal.
People involved in bizarre satanic rituals would believe it. Human history includes sacrifices, satanic rituals, and cannibalism. Multi-millionaires and billionaires on Epstein's island might engage in child sacrifice or cannibalism; people don't want to believe it.
Initial theory was an intelligence honeypot operation (Mossad/CIA), making it a man-bites-dog story, per Whitney Webb's One Nation Under Blackmail. Files don't show that. Epstein emailed himself content in Boris Nikolic's (Bill Gates science adviser) voice: Gates got STDs from Russian women, wanted antibiotics slipped into Melinda's drink. Melinda was asked about it.
Emails imply dirt on people like Gates, used for leverage. A woman said she was investigating an island bringing children for sex; Epstein replied she almost had a heart attack when he said that person is me. Shellenberger interprets as addressing rumors about himself, not admitting it. Rogan insists the text says he brings children to his island for sex, without denying it.
Mike Benz points to Epstein as possible intelligence contractor or financier hiding money, but no evidence of ongoing operations. Only half the emails (3 million released, 3 million FBI-held unreleased). Drawing conclusions from partial data is premature; unreleased data might be worse (e.g., erection pills for grape soda, island confession).
Epstein was in charge, charmed people as best friends. Abused girls in Florida as a pervert, not blackmail. Bill Gates email seems from Boris Nikolic threatening for a New York apartment. Many attorneys, FBI, districts reviewed files; all would need to be complicit for cover-up. Powerful non-victims redacted shows influence. Redactions protect innocents or non-guilty. Epstein liked a torture video (from a sultan). Shellenberger sees moral panic like Me Too 2.0: Larry Summers, Bill Gates, Sarah Ferguson, Peter Attia lost positions unfairly despite associations.
Logic now: any Epstein interaction means knowing/complicit in abuse. Glad files released despite redaction issues; Congress sought some redactions, innocents (e.g., gun license applicants) protected. Many continued business post-arrest (public knowledge). Epstein served 13 months (house arrest, sweetheart deal). Claim Acosta was told Epstein was intelligence is secondhand, anonymous via Vicky Ward—not direct.
Mike Benz: Epstein tied to Iran-Contra at best, as contractor/financier—not deciding operations. Epstein claimed he killed Pons' cold fusion research by cutting funding. Shellenberger skeptical: cold fusion fringe, not mainstream; huge undertakings like nuclear fission involve masses, hard to cover up. Rogan: maybe breakthrough suppressed to protect energy interests; Epstein had dirt on university heads (e.g., Harvard's Larry Summers stepped down). Summers' resignation was over women-in-STEM remarks, not Epstein; Epstein exaggerated influence (e.g., Santa Fe Institute). Epstein made money via high-level deals: $45M DOJ fine for Ariane de Rothschild, $10M to Katherine Ruemmler (Obama's White House counsel), $25M to Epstein.
Epstein's social/emotional intelligence off the charts, master manipulator. Separate justice for rich; no intelligence evidence helped him. Virginia Giuffre claimed then retracted sex with Dershowitz. Some victims untrustworthy, possibly prostitutes. Complex trafficking: reported 14-year-old (turned 15), rescued, orphaned, returned to aunt, back on streets voluntarily.
Assumed murder, but evidence weak. Hyoid bone broken in three places, low on neck—happens in hangings, especially older people. Guards deposited money (e.g., $5,000 ten days prior), Googled him, cameras cut, asleep during check on high-profile inmate off suicide watch. Prior attempt 18 days before; cellmate Nicholas Tartaglione, ex-cop, killed four in contract drug killings, huge/jacked. Epstein claimed cellmate tried to kill/extort him; found unresponsive. Video of first attempt gone. Alone that night (protocol violation: no cellmate post-suicide watch). Guards asleep common; cameras out earlier. Jail has rough inmates.
New documents reveal Jeffrey Epstein claimed his cellmate tried to kill him 18 days before his death. Epstein was found unresponsive in a fetal position on the floor, snoring. He told officers that cellmate Tag Leone tried to kill him and had been harassing him. Tag Leone claimed he was asleep and woke up to see Epstein with a string around his neck. After this incident, Epstein was placed alone in his cell. Psychologists thought Epstein was suicidal. Epstein denied suicidality in a post-suicide watch report, stating "I have no interest in killing myself" and "it would be crazy to take his life," though he was depressed about his legal situation and remained on psychological observation.
Joe Rogan argues this was not a suicide attempt but an assault by Tag Leone, described as a sociopathic cop who killed four guys and a potential contract killer. Rogan questions why dismiss Epstein's claim, especially given the circumstances: hyoid bone broken (uncommon in hangings), Epstein said he didn't want to commit suicide, video cameras malfunctioned, security guards asleep. A huge investigation by the inspector general found many lapses, but involving a large number of people in a conspiracy seems unlikely as they are typically do-gooders, though powerful figures could influence them.
Michael Shellenberger initially thought it was a homicide but now says we don't know, citing the 18-day prior incident as new evidence he hadn't fully considered. He notes Epstein lost his bail appeal days before, faced life in prison, loved his decadent life, and psychologists believed he was suicidal. Prison failed: no roommate, guards asleep, cameras not fixed despite high-profile status.
Cameras were down for a while before, not just that day; guards fall asleep often. One video outside the cell has a missing minute and appears edited. Epstein was not in protective custody, no shoelaces or means to hang himself. They placed him with a killer initially. Shellenberger: Interpretations possible either way—suicide to avoid prison or murder. Rogan: Weird facts stack up suspiciously.
Epstein had emails about installing hidden cameras in Kleenex boxes with motion detectors. One email: "Your friend told me about the projects he's doing researching a really bad guy who gets children for sex sent to his island. She almost fainted when I told her that person is me." Shellenberger interprets as sarcasm; recipient knows it's not true, possibly employee Masha. Rogan sees it as admission. Post-2008, little evidence of underage abuse, though not defending adult abuse.
FBI confiscated films and videos. Visitors described a bathroom in Epstein's townhouse (later Wexner's) with lead lining, concealed CCTV screens and phone like James Bond. State Department leased him a New York mansion then sued him. Les Wexner gave him a Manhattan house for $10 transfer; notary filmed best 9/11 footage, timing aligns with missing 2019 files.
Epstein made money as high-level fixer, magnetic personality attracting people like Bonami, Chsky, Ahood Barack without overt blackmail. No clear footprints of blackmail use. Codes like grape soda, shrimp, pizza, jerky objectify women/children. Shellenberger doubts literal child trafficking admission in email.
Epstein associate found dead in Paris prison after saying he would flip; hanged himself with sheets. Rogan: People get killed to prevent flipping. Shellenberger: Possible, but need evidence; psychopaths suicide too. No clear ties to intelligence or specific killings.
New Mexico ranch: Federal authorities never searched; state reopening 2019 investigation. Links to lottery winners. No half of files released.
Rogan shares UFO video from friend in Texas: dot in sky, not compelling on playback (better zoomed in original). Discussion on Elon Musk: Works with NASA, some say he knows more about UAPs but doesn't share. SpaceX employee: "Elon's really close with the federal government."
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