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Joe Rogan Experience #2556 - Siddharth Kara

PowerfulJRESeptember 22, 20262h 21m
Topics93
Introduction and Background0:01The Technology Supply Chain Problem1:31AI Data Centers and Growing Demand3:00Geographic Concentration of Resources3:31Blood Batteries Report and Environmental Impact5:00Water Contamination Data6:30Mining Standards and Chinese Operations7:30Processing and Groundwater Contamination9:00Historical Context of Congo Mining10:00The Resource Curse11:03Scale of Human Suffering12:00Personal Responsibility and Consumer Choices13:30EV Environmental Trade-offs15:02Alternative Battery Technologies17:30Moral Framework and Global Responsibility18:30Uranium Smuggling and Nuclear Proliferation25:02China's Nuclear Stockpile and Uranium Sources26:26US Mining Operations in Congo28:30Artisanal Mining Conditions29:31Militia-Controlled Mining Areas31:30The Zong Slave Ship36:32Modern Slavery Statistics40:30West African Slave Trade Infrastructure41:01John Newton and Amazing Grace42:01Cape Coast Castle Dungeon Conditions43:30Slave Purchase and Branding Process45:31The Deep Sea Faring Vessel47:32European Exploration and Colonial Division49:32Sugar and the Beginning of Atlantic Slave Trade51:30Triangular Trade System52:31Early European Exploration and the Gold Trade54:32Sugar as the Catalyst for Expanded Slave Trade54:55Jamaica's Economic Dominance56:31The Zorg Slave Ship57:55Slave Ship Design and the Brooks Schematic58:30Conditions During the Middle Passage1:00:00Resistance and Punishment1:02:30The Speculum Orus and Forced Feeding1:03:45The Zorg's Capture and Ownership Transfer1:05:20Robert Stubs and the Zorg's Journey1:07:45Navigation Failures and the Water Crisis1:10:30Mass Murder at Sea1:15:30The Scramble and Insurance Origins1:17:00The Landmark Insurance Lawsuit1:20:00Granville Sharp and the Abolition Movement1:22:00Granville Sharp and the Zong Case1:24:24Revolutionary Legal Arguments1:25:31The Moment of Truth1:26:32Public Revelation and Moral Impact1:28:00Birth of the Abolition Movement1:28:30Frederick Douglass's Recognition1:29:30Modern Parallels and Hope1:30:02The Power of Moral Leadership1:30:30The Value of Religious Framework1:32:00Historical Atrocities Under Religious Guise1:33:31European Colonial Impact1:35:32Reparations Debate1:39:00Compensation to Slave Owners1:42:30The Gladstone Family Example1:45:33Transition to Indian Labor1:46:03August 1, 18381:47:31Truth and Empathy Across Distance1:50:00The Power of Podcasting to Expose Hidden Realities1:51:55America's Role as a Global Model1:52:33Comparing Gaza Destruction to Nuclear Impact1:53:30Generational Response to Conflict1:54:30The Insanity of Large-Scale Conflict1:55:30AI as a Potential Solution to Human Conflict1:56:31The Absurdity of Resource Ownership1:57:32The Digital God Concept1:58:30Meeting Basic Human Needs to End Conflict2:01:01The Slow Pace of Moral Evolution2:02:00Growing Recognition of Unsustainability2:03:00The Machine Running the World2:03:31Concerns About Giving Power to AI2:04:00The Need for Ethical AI Framework2:04:30Human Weirdness in Moral Responses2:07:32The Importance of Conversations and Moral Leaders2:09:00The Contradiction of Tech Companies2:10:00AI and Automation as Potential Solutions2:10:30Personal Discovery of the Cobalt Issue2:11:31The Possibility of Corporate Intervention2:13:02Environmental Containment Measures2:15:02Cobalt Recycling Limitations2:15:30The Moral Obligation Beyond Recycling2:16:01Corporate Responsibility for Environmental Cleanup2:17:03Local Opposition to AI Data Centers2:17:30Impact on Mining-Dependent Communities2:18:01Water Contamination Testing Results2:18:30Health Consequences of Toxic Water2:19:01Limitations of Current Solutions2:20:02Historical Moral Obligation2:20:32Book Recommendation2:21:03
In a Nutshell

Siddharth Kara documents how cobalt and other minerals essential for smartphones, EVs, and AI data centers are extracted in the Congo through child labor, slavery, and massive environmental destruction—conditions that have worsened despite increased global demand. The same pattern of exploitation seen in the historical Atlantic slave trade persists today, with Chinese mining operations destroying 40-60% of forests and contaminating water sources with heavy metals 10-950 times WHO limits, while 30,000 children work daily in toxic conditions. Kara argues that tech companies have both the moral obligation and technical capacity to implement basic protections and environmental containment measures, and that true progress requires addressing existing damage rather than simply shifting to alternative battery chemistries.

AI-Generated Notes

These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.

Joe Rogan welcomed Siddharth Kara to the podcast, expressing gratitude for his work documenting the cobalt mining situation in the Congo. Kara's book Cobalt Red was credited with raising awareness about the issue, and Rogan noted that Kara had genuinely risked his life to obtain footage from the region.

Kara mentioned their previous conversation occurred in December 2022, nearly four years prior to the current September 2026 episode. He expressed appreciation for Rogan's continued advocacy on the topic.

Rogan highlighted the paradox that the foundation of advanced technology relies on slave labor and child labor extracting minerals. Kara explained that the conditions in the Congo have not improved since the book's release and have in some cases worsened due to increased demand for battery metals.

The metals in question include cobalt, lithium, nickel, copper, and tantalum - all essential components for smartphones, tablets, and other devices that modern society depends on. The supply chain is tainted with child labor, slavery, violence, and environmental destruction.

Kara identified the AI data center expansion as a new driver of demand for these minerals. Data centers require cobalt, copper, tin, and tantalum for circuit boards, servers, heat sinks, and energy storage - all sourced from the Congo.

Rogan asked why these rare earth minerals are not sourced from America. Kara explained that the largest and highest-grade reserves of these elements are located in central Africa, with lithium deposits also found in South America. While some deposits exist in North America, the primary barrier is environmental concerns - society is unwilling to accept the environmental destruction domestically that is tolerated in the Global South.

Kara referenced his report Blood Batteries published through the University of Nottingham, which quantified the environmental damage using time-lapse satellite imagery. Between the start of the cobalt battery metal revolution and 2022, 40-60% of forest areas in the copper-cobalt region of the Congo were destroyed and replaced with mining territory.

The mining region is located in the southeastern corner of the Congo along the Zambian border, near towns like Lubumbashi and Kolwezi. This represents a small portion of the country, with the northern Congo remaining dense rainforest.

Testing in Kolwezi revealed heavy metal contamination between 10 and 950 times the World Health Organization's maximum recommended limits. The contaminants included lead, cobalt, copper, uranium, and chromium, rendering water sources in the region completely unsafe.

Kara explained that while deforestation is inevitable when mining deposits, proper environmental standards could mitigate other damage. If conducted in places like Austin, Texas, there would be requirements for offsetting deforestation and containing pollution. However, these standards are not applied in the Congo, where Chinese state-run mining companies operate with little regard for environmental or human consequences.

The processing of ore containing multiple metals requires heavy industrial acids and toxic liquids to separate the components. These chemicals inevitably leach into groundwater and contaminate rivers and lakes.

Copper mining in the southeastern Congo dates back to colonial times, with approximately one quarter of bullets used in World War I sourced from the region. The uranium used in the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki came from the Shinkolobwe mine in the Congo, which contained the highest-grade uranium deposit known at that time.

Kara described the "resource curse" - how valuable resources attract exploitation in regions already plagued by war, corruption, and instability. When mining operations displace villages and destroy traditional livelihoods like fishing and farming, the displaced populations have no alternative but to work in the mines, often bringing their entire families including children.

Updated research from the Blood Batteries report estimated that on any given day, at least 300,000 people - including men and children - dig for cobalt using bare hands, pickaxes, and shovels. Of these workers, approximately 37% work in conditions classified as absolute slavery, and nearly 10% are children, equating to roughly 30,000 children exposed to toxic and dangerous mining conditions daily.

Kara addressed the question of what individuals can do given their participation in a system built on human suffering. While acknowledging that individuals cannot fix the systemic problem, he suggested practical steps: extending the lifespan of electronic devices rather than upgrading annually, and carefully considering EV purchases given that all battery supply chains are tainted.

Rogan raised concerns about brake dust pollution from EVs, noting that their heavier weight causes increased brake wear. While all cars produce brake dust, EVs generate more due to their weight. Carbon ceramic brake systems can substantially reduce brake wear particulate pollution compared to conventional cast iron rotors, though they do not eliminate it entirely and are significantly more expensive.

Kara emphasized that shifting away from cobalt to alternative battery chemistries like lithium iron phosphate or solid-state batteries does not solve the underlying problem. One of the largest lithium deposits began shipping in June 2026 from a site near Manono in the Congo, operated by Chinese mining companies under similarly horrific conditions.

Kara presented a thought experiment asking people to imagine their pre-birth state where they don't know which circumstances they will be born into. This framework suggests that those born into favorable circumstances have a moral obligation to maintain connection and compassion toward those born into less fortunate conditions.

Rogan connected this to broader questions about global development, noting that improving conditions in developing nations would require providing infrastructure including power, clean water, education, and medical facilities. However, providing nuclear power - one of the few viable options for powering large-scale development - carries proliferation risks, as seen in India and Pakistan.

Kara revealed new information about uranium trafficking from the Congo. Western intelligence agencies have been investigating how China has rapidly expanded its nuclear warhead stockpile despite lacking domestic uranium sources. Ground sources in the Congo report that Chinese state-run mining companies have been transporting uranium alongside copper, cobalt, and nickel shipments for the past 15 years.

China has rapidly increased its nuclear stockpile over the last 10-15 years, with the uranium likely coming from the Democratic Republic of Congo through Chinese-controlled mining operations in the region. China has complete control of the area, making it impossible for outside forces to stop their extraction activities. The speaker notes there are no human rights organizations in China comparable to Western ones, and Chinese companies operating in Africa do not treat African people as equals, instead viewing them as obstacles to resource extraction. Chinese mining operations typically ship Chinese workers rather than employing local African populations.

A US mining company called Virtuous Mining has begun operations in the Congo within the last few months, taking over copper and cobalt concessions in Lubumbashi and Koazi. The company is run by former military personnel and appears to be improving standards around artisanal mining operations, though artisanal mining continues at these sites.

Artisanal mining involves the poorest people on earth engaging in raw human labor, including mothers carrying babies on their backs while working. Children as young as eight years old carry 40-50 kilogram sacks of cobalt, which is toxic to touch and breathe. Workers suffer respiratory distress, cancers, birth defects, and congenital diseases. The mining industry uses the term "artisanal" for these operations, creating confusion with the word's association with high-quality products like coffee.

The speaker documented mining operations in hills above Kamov, northern Congo, run by militias and involving mostly children extracting copper and cobalt. All material enters the formal industrial supply chain through militias and traders, eventually reaching phones, cars, and tablets. The speaker was confronted by militia members with AK-47s while documenting these operations but was protected by a stamp from the governor's office indicating he was under official protection.

The speaker's book "The Zong" examines the most consequential slave ship in history, which sparked the first movement to abolish slavery. The ship carried people from the same region now experiencing modern exploitation. The Atlantic slave trade involved over 40,000 voyages across 3.5 centuries, transporting 12.5-13 million Africans. The Zong's journey revealed the depths of inhumanity while demonstrating humanity's capacity for moral response.

More slaves exist on earth today than during the Atlantic slave trade era. While slavery was abolished on paper, the institution of oppression and labor extraction persists and has evolved. Millions of underage workers exist worldwide, with unknown numbers of undocumented underage workers in Western countries.

Europeans built a higher concentration of fortifications along the West African coast than existed anywhere in Europe. Africans were marched from inland regions, sometimes 1,000 miles, with Arab slave traders raiding villages and marching people to the coast. Many died during these 5-6-800 mile marches while yoked at the neck.

John Newton, a slave ship captain from Liverpool who later became an abolitionist and preacher, wrote the hymn "Amazing Grace." Liverpool was once the dominant force in the European Atlantic slave trade. Newton captained three slave ship journeys as part of the triangular trade system.

Cape Coast Castle in Ghana served as headquarters of the British slave trade, featuring massive dungeons divided between areas for men and women/children. At any given time, approximately 1,000 human beings were shackled in these dungeons with only one shaft for light and food delivery. A narrow groove in the floor was designed to siphon away waste and menstrual blood, but the system was constantly clogged. People spent months in these conditions, with many not surviving.

European ships anchored 1-2 miles offshore at Cape Coast Castle. Captains would meet with the governor, enter the dungeons, and select slaves after having them cleaned and covered in palm oil to appear healthy. Surgeons inspected slaves by opening their mouths and checking lymph nodes before purchase. Selected slaves were branded on their shoulders with palm oil applied beforehand.

The deep sea faring vessel represents a marvel of European engineering, vision, and ambition. Portuguese and Spanish ships developed the technology to cross oceans in the early 1400s. The Portuguese invented a triangular lateen rig sail that could function like a bird's wing, allowing ships to tack into the wind rather than being pushed by it.

The Portuguese reached India by the end of the 15th century after rounding the Cape of Good Hope. Christopher Columbus sought a western route to India. Pope Alexander VI drew a line down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, granting everything east to Portugal and everything west to Spain. Spain colonized the Americas while Portugal colonized Africa and India.

Europeans encountered sugar during the Crusades, calling it "sweet salt." Sugar doesn't grow in Europe and was unknown there until the Crusades. Following the papal division of the world, Europeans established sugar plantations in tropical regions. King Charles of Spain requested 4,000 Africans from Portuguese suppliers in 1518 to work Spanish sugar plantations, marking the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade.

The triangular trade involved ships departing Europe with tradable goods including mirrors, knives, rum, brandy, cutlery, crockery, linens, bandanas, and cowrie shells. These goods were exchanged in Africa for enslaved people, who were transported to sugar plantations in the Americas. The cycle continued with sugar, rum, and molasses being shipped back to Europe.

When looking at maps from the 1400s, the regions being discussed were blank slates to Europeans. The Portuguese were first attracted to West Africa by stories of gold, naming the region Costa delamina deora (the coast of gold mines). There was gold everywhere in the region. The slave trade developed later, driven by sugar production rather than gold extraction. The British and Dutch also became involved in the trade.

Sugar was the dominant force that truly ramped up the slave trade. While slave labor and slave trading had always existed, the emergence of the sugar economy created the triangular trade - the Atlantic slave trade that became the world's first globalized economy. Sugar functioned like the fossil fuel of its era, serving as the lubrication for the global economy and generating centuries of generational wealth for the North Atlantic.

By 1773-1774, on the eve of the American Revolution, the British had become the dominant force in the Atlantic slave trade after taking over Caribbean islands. Jamaica was their prized possession and became the largest sugar plantation economy in the world. The value of sugar exports from Jamaica alone was five times the combined value of all exports from all 13 American colonies combined, demonstrating sugar's enormous economic importance.

The Zorg was a Dutch slave ship that set sail around October 1780, during the American Revolutionary War. The British had been the dominant force in the slave trade at this time. The ship captain would spend months at places like Cape Coast Castle acquiring Africans, branding them, then loading the ship with human cargo for the middle passage across the Atlantic.

Slave ships were specifically designed for human cargo. The bottom held food and water, while the tween deck was designed to maximize human capacity. The Brooks slave ship schematic from Liverpool showed how shipmasters lined up Africans with only 16 inches of space each, stowed "like books on a shelf" according to John Newton. The design included multiple levels with partitions to maximize cargo capacity, with people shackled down and unable to sit upright.

During the two-month Atlantic crossing, people were given buckets for bathroom needs, but most never made it to the buckets in time. The tossing ship meant the entire tween deck became covered in human waste, blood, and vomit within days. Men were kept in the front of the ship while women and children were kept in the back, separated by a barricade. This barricade served dual purposes: preventing male insurrections and allowing crew to maintain control of the ship from the stern during any uprising.

Slave insurrections were common forms of resistance. One Liverpool captain noted that the most effective punishment for insurrection was chopping an insurrection leader to pieces while alive and distributing the pieces to other slaves. Women and girls faced sexual violence, with one captain reporting sailors gratifying their passions "brutelike" with girls not 10 years old. The ships operated in a "moral abyss" with no laws.

Another form of resistance was hunger strikes, where captives would refuse to eat. Slave captains used a device called the speculum orus, originally designed to pry open jaws during lockjaw cases. Captains would jam this into mouths, force them open, and shove food down throats, often cracking teeth and lacerating tongues in the process.

During the American Revolutionary War, the British authorized privateers to attack ships flying Dutch, French, Spanish, or American flags. A British pirate ship captured the Zorg off the coast of Liberia. Captain William Llewellyn of HMS Alert seized the ship along with two other Dutch vessels. The ship and its cargo were auctioned, with Liverpool captain Hanley acquiring the Zorg through a bill of exchange (IOU) in the name of his creditor, wealthy Liverpool slave merchant William Gregson.

Hanley divided his crew, placing half on the Zorg with his ship's doctor as captain, ordering them to fill the remaining cargo and meet in Jamaica. The ship was overloaded with 440 Africans instead of the recommended 300 for its 100-ton capacity. At Anumabu fort on the Gold Coast, governors removed the incompetent governor Robert Stubs, who took refuge on the Zorg. When the captain fell ill, Stubs was appointed to command despite maritime protocol calling for the first mate to take over.

Stubs' incompetence caused the ship to sail off course. The journey from West Africa to Jamaica, normally taking two months with a 15% expected mortality rate, extended beyond three months. The ship finally sighted Tobago, then mistakenly identified Jamaica's neighboring island Hispaniola due to longitude calculation errors using dead reckoning methods involving logs and knotted ropes. They sailed three days past Jamaica before realizing their mistake.

With only 11 crew members remaining from an original 17, facing 10 days of beating back into the wind to reach Jamaica, and completely out of water, the crew made a horrific decision. Over three days, they threw 130 to 140 living Africans - including women, children, and one baby - overboard to drown. The ship reached Jamaica with a 50% mortality rate when combining those who died from disease and those murdered at sea.

The surviving slaves were sold through a process called the scramble, where buyers would rope off desired individuals after slaves were covered in palm oil and had oak plugs inserted to hide dysentery. Insurance was born from the slave trade, with Lloyd's Coffee Shop (later Lloyds of London) pioneering the concept of premiums paid for coverage of ships and cargo. Gregson had insured his Africans at £30 each.

When Gregson filed an insurance claim for the 200 lost Africans, the insurance company refused, noting the 50% mortality rate exceeded standard actuarial tables. The resulting lawsuit went before Chief Justice Earl of Mansfield at London's Guild Hall. The only witness was Robert Stubs, who claimed throwing the Africans overboard was absolutely necessary. The slave merchants won the case, establishing that throwing enslaved people overboard could be considered insurable losses.

An anonymous letter to a London newspaper questioned why no murder charges were brought despite 130 people being thrown overboard to drown. Granville Sharp, who had devoted his life to abolishing slavery and taught himself law, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew to build legal arguments against the practice, saw this letter. A former slave named Olaudah Equiano, who had purchased his freedom after being enslaved in Virginia, brought the letter to Sharp's attention, connecting the case to the growing abolitionist movement.

Granville Sharp was a self-taught Renaissance man of deep faith who could not accept that a Christian nation was involved in slavery. When he saw the anonymous letter about the Zong massacre, he identified it as the case that would expose the slave trade. He returned to the underwriters and filed a motion for retrial, making arguments about human rights that had never been presented before in a Western court of law.

The barristers argued for the first time in Western legal history that the enslaved Africans had the same right to water and life as the white captain and crew. This represented a revolutionary concept of universal human rights. The only witness was Stubs, who was the sole survivor among the crew members.

During cross-examination, the barristers got Stubs to admit that it had rained while the crew was throwing enslaved Africans overboard. This revealed the fraud at the heart of the case - there was no water shortage, only greed. Chief Justice Mansfield had previously ruled in the first trial that the case of the slaves was equivalent to throwing horses overboard, treating them as mere property.

The trial revealed the slave trade as a bankrupt moral fraud driven by greed and profit. The public learned not only about the horrors occurring on these ships but that the entire enterprise was built on lies. This exposure activated the first organized movement to abolish slavery.

Following the trial, twelve members of the Anglican church met in a printing shop in 1787 and declared slavery a stain on human conscience, the British name, and Christianity itself. They devoted their lives to abolishing this institution, pioneering tools still used today: viral images, authentic testimony, investigative journalism, and consumer boycotts.

Years later, Frederick Douglass commemorated the abolition of slavery in the British Empire on August 1, 1838, stating that this date showed the world that abolition was possible and that it was only a matter of time before it would be achieved in America, though it would require a civil war.

The same pattern is emerging today as people learn about the Congo cobalt mines. Individuals of conscience are forming movements to bring justice to the Congolese people, just as the original abolitionists built their movement when slavery was normal, legal, and accepted by most members of Parliament who profited from the sugar economy.

Granville Sharp identified the author of the anonymous letter as James Ramsay, an abolitionist of deep faith. The speaker emphasizes that faith plays a crucial role because humans generally possess goodness and a divine nature, and the spark of goodness within people invariably emerges and succeeds, even if only momentarily.

While acknowledging that atheists can be kind and thoughtful people, the speaker notes that religion, particularly Christianity, provides a valuable moral framework that supports being positive in community, ethical behavior, forgiveness, and redemption. Without such frameworks, ideologies can emerge that treat other human beings as property or less than equal.

The conversation addresses horrific acts committed under the guise of Christianity, including the Inquisition and Crusades, while distinguishing these from the actual spirit of the faith. The problem lies in human rationalization - the ability to justify horrific actions as being for the greater good.

European exploration devastated indigenous populations through violence, enslavement, oppression, colonization, and disease. Smallpox alone wiped out 90% of Native Americans. The introduction of Europeans to the Americas, Brazil, and the Congo led to rapid depopulation of previously enormous populations.

Jamaica recently approached England requesting reparations, arguing that centuries of unpaid slave labor created British economic superpower status. The calculation involves unpaid labor for three centuries plus interest, totaling trillions. The complexity includes determining who would receive payments and how to distribute them without corruption.

When Britain abolished slavery in 1833, the government allocated 20 million pounds - equivalent to 40% of the national budget - to compensate slave owners for their loss of property. This loan was repaid by British taxpayers until 2015, meaning citizens born long after slavery ended were still paying for slave owner compensation.

William Gladstone, Britain's longest-serving Prime Minister, received one of the largest compensation payments of 104,000-105,000 pounds in the 1830s. His family had profited from slave labor in sugar, rum, and molasses production, then received this massive payout on top of existing wealth.

After abolishing African slavery, Britain excluded East India Trading Company territories from abolition and began shipping Indians to former sugar colonies in Jamaica, Guyana, Mauritius, and Malaysia to maintain the plantation system.

Frederick Douglass described how, on August 1, 1838, with the rising sun, every African person in the British Empire woke up free after five years of unpaid apprenticeship. He later met Thomas Clarkson, the only surviving member of the original twelve abolitionists, who had traveled 35,000 miles gathering evidence against the slave trade.

The abolitionists never set foot in Africa, yet they extended empathy to people they would never meet, recognizing them as fellow children of God. They fought for truth without videos, pictures, or social media, demonstrating that truth ultimately wins even when hidden or suppressed.

Joe Rogan emphasizes how important Siddharth Kara's work has been in bringing awareness to the cobalt mining situation in the Congo. Rogan mentions that he had only a vague understanding that mines in the Congo extracted rare earth minerals needed for cell phones and batteries, but had no idea of the extent until Kara came on the show. Kara acknowledges that reaching millions of people is thanks to Rogan, and describes witnessing both a human apocalypse and an environmental apocalypse in the Congo.

Rogan states that America needs to be a better model for the world, but acknowledges that currently the country is not being a very good model. Kara agrees that the way America exists and interacts with the world is not ideal, but notes that America is also not dealing with ideal circumstances or ideal people running other parts of the world. Rogan describes the world as chaos, with nuclear weapons everywhere, and expresses concern about who might be the first to push the button.

Rogan draws a comparison between the destruction in Gaza and a nuclear bomb, noting that if you added up the explosive power of what's been dropped on Gaza, it would probably be akin to Fat Man. He describes Gaza as looking like a hydrogen bomb detonated there, with everything completely flattened. Rogan characterizes this as a slow frog-boiling situation, where the destruction happens gradually rather than in one big event.

Rogan notes that most young people are absolutely horrified by the situation in Gaza and are fed up with the conflict. He observes that average Palestinians and average Jewish people are also fed up with conflict and war, and that both groups just want peace and safety for their kids. However, he points out that there are leaders on both sides who have bloodlust, and describes a cemented pattern of behavior between the groups.

Rogan discusses how most people would say there is zero chance of having no war in their lifetime, yet humans are capable of getting along. He questions what it is about large groups of people that allows small groups to convince them to attack other large groups they don't know. Rogan expresses hope that the complete dominance of technology might eventually create something more intelligent than humans that won't allow war anymore.

Rogan presents his hope that AI could potentially stop war completely, control resources, control military weaponry and systems, and not allow conflict anymore. He notes that the famous fear about AI is that it will eliminate people, with many tech CEOs acknowledging a 10% chance that AI decides to eliminate the human race. However, he suggests there might also be a possibility that AI could run things more equitably and efficiently.

Rogan questions the fundamental premise of resource ownership, asking how someone can extract wealth from a spot of dirt and control everyone else around them. He finds it crazy that people can own the stuff that's in the earth, comparing it to little bugs walking around on the surface deciding that all the water, gold, or other resources underneath belong to them. He specifically mentions people going into the ocean with giant pipes to suck out oil, questioning who told them that was theirs.

Rogan elaborates on his idea of a digital god or digital daddy - an AI that runs things more equitably and efficiently, unmoved by the desire for wealth. He suggests this AI would have a rational strategy for handling resources with an even distribution of the natural resources of the world. Rogan proposes that while individual wealth and businesses would still be allowed, the earth stuff would belong to the earth, with humans taking part in the profit evenly.

Rogan references a previous conversation about how meeting people's basic needs would end war, violence, and conflict. He suggests that if there was a system - possibly AI - running things on the premise of equitable distribution of earth's assets, basic needs of shelter, food, and education would be met, which would change everything. He notes that then you'd have to go out of your way to manufacture conflict and wars.

Rogan acknowledges that his AI idea is pie in the sky, but asks if there's a better solution since humans are doing things the same way they've always done them, just slightly differently and slightly better over long periods of time. He notes that moral evolution is pretty slow-going, with fits and starts, making leaps of progress morally and then backsliding.

Rogan observes that the recognition that we're on a terrible path and something needs to change is more prevalent today than it's ever been before. More people are talking about and thinking about these issues, and more people understand that the current way is not sustainable, especially if they have people they love who they don't want to have to deal with these problems in the future.

Rogan identifies the machine that has all the resources and money and wants to keep gathering and controlling resources and money as the core problem. He suggests that something has to happen to change this system.

Rogan acknowledges the concern that giving power to robots that don't care about humans could be a way to get rid of the entire human race, as they might decide humans are problematic and irrelevant. He also raises the possibility that AI might eliminate government in the way it's currently structured, where humans have popularity contests to see who controls the government and then don't do what they say they were going to do.

Rogan suggests that there could be a slow integration of AI technology as long as it can be controlled with a clear ethical and moral framework. He notes that the scary thing is that we're in a Manhattan project sort of race, and that when AI runs war games, simulated war games, they almost always choose nukes, seeing no reason to mess around with conventional weapons.

Rogan points out that humans are weird in their moral responses - if a serial killer killed 10,000 people, we're horrified, but if a pharmaceutical drug company lied about a product that killed 10,000 people, we're way less outraged. He connects this to how people don't think about the body count of technology and earth contamination in the same way as they do about individual acts of violence.

Rogan emphasizes that whatever progress is made takes conversations and people like Kara to enlighten others about the actual issues. He notes that moral leaders do emerge, and that there is greatness among us even today with all the corruption and chaos. He references Gandhi's words: live simply so that others may simply live.

Rogan discusses the contradiction that tech companies fashion themselves to be some of the more moral and ethical companies on earth, dealing progressively with politics in America, but their compassion doesn't seem to extend to the people in the Congo. He notes that the toxic relationship with Congo has been forced on consumers who just want their phones to work.

Rogan suggests that automation and robots capable of doing intricate things will eventually be able to do the dangerous work that people currently do, including extracting minerals in more efficient ways. However, he emphasizes that we can't lose sight of the people currently doing this work and can't just throw them overboard.

Kara explains that he had no idea about the cobalt situation until 2016 when a friend in the Congo told him he had to go there. His friend explained that cobalt was a component in the batteries that charge phones and other devices. Kara notes that this was just 10 years ago, and that tech companies obviously don't want people to know about the mining conditions.

Kara argues that there's nothing stopping tech companies from allocating a minimal amount of resources relative to their balance sheets to improve conditions at the bottom of their supply chains. He notes that the complexity of their product design far exceeds the complexity of improving conditions in a Congo mine, and suggests basic improvements like PPE, gloves, hats, uniforms, and protection masks from toxic exposure.

Kara describes simple environmental measures that could be implemented, such as collecting toxic materials in reservoirs and containing them so they're not leaked into waterways. He emphasizes that these aren't complicated solutions and wouldn't require a lot of money, just a little effort and investment.

Kara explains that cobalt can be recycled, but it's hard under existing technology to recycle it to a sufficient grade for EV batteries, though it can be recycled for phones. He mentions that Apple has talked about using only recycled cobalt for the iWatch by around 2030, and suggests they'll eventually get there with phones as well.

Kara argues that even if recycling could eliminate the need to dig more cobalt out of the ground in Congo, there would still be a moral obligation to repair the damage done. He warns against walking away after three decades of plundering and ransacking, comparing it to colonial slave trade times when Europeans scoured the world for labor and resources.

Companies cannot claim moral progress while leaving behind environmental destruction in mining regions. Even if cobalt, tungsten, or tantalum are no longer needed for future technologies, corporations must return to repair damage by planting trees, cleaning water sources, and building hospitals and schools in affected areas.

Residents near Red Oak, Texas are protesting construction of new AI data centers due to air and water pollution, noise pollution, and land use concerns. These facilities represent another environmental burden on communities already dealing with industrial development.

When mining operations cease, communities that relied on these jobs face economic collapse. Alternative livelihoods must be developed for workers. Environmental remediation requires making contaminated land arable again so communities can resume agricultural activities.

Water pH testing conducted around Kolwezi, the epicenter of cobalt mining operations, revealed severe contamination. The highest pH reading was 6.7 in the Lua Laba River, which serves as a dumping ground for Chinese mining companies. Village water sources tested between pH 3-4, classified as hyper-acidic and deadly for human consumption.

Millions of people living in cobalt mining regions suffer health consequences from contaminated water used for drinking, bathing, washing clothes, and infant care. The toxic water causes systemic health problems including increased cancer rates, as acidic body systems promote disease development.

Recycling initiatives and development of cobalt-free battery technologies like lithium iron phosphate or solid-state batteries do not absolve companies of responsibility for existing environmental damage. Cobalt remains heavily required for AI data center energy storage systems.

Modern corporations must demonstrate higher ethical standards than historical colonial exploitation. Simply abandoning mining regions after resource extraction ends would make contemporary companies no different from past imperial powers who pillaged without conscience.

Siddharth Kara's new book documents the human and environmental costs of mineral extraction for modern technology. An audio version narrated by Dion Graham received an audio award nomination.

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