Joe Rogan Experience #2574 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
In a Nutshell
The core message is that social media manipulation, AI-driven job displacement, and economic inequality are creating dangerous instability, but the solutions aren't revolution or redistribution—they're strengthening social cohesion through religion, community, and meaningful work while implementing universal high income to prevent mass disenfranchisement. The guests argue that humans need purpose beyond consumption, and that failure, struggle, and contribution are essential for psychological health rather than guaranteed comfort. They warn that without addressing the "locked out" population's legitimate grievances, society risks either authoritarian control or revolutionary violence.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Joe Rogan discusses developments in Brazil involving Flavio Bolsonaro, son of former President Jair Bolsonaro. After the election concluded, Bolsonaro's passport was reportedly confiscated, and he allegedly fled to the United States. Rogan mentions that Lula warned that if elected, Bolsonaro would face imprisonment, drawing a parallel to Trump's comments about Hillary Clinton. The conversation notes uncertainty about the specific charges against Bolsonaro.
The discussion covers allegations that Lula's former defense attorney was appointed to Brazil's Supreme Court and subsequently extended polling hours by two additional hours, which allegedly enabled Lula to win the election. Rogan and the guests express skepticism about relying on social media for facts, noting the prevalence of fabricated stories.
Rogan identifies a strategic effort to "muddy the waters" through disinformation campaigns, where the goal is to confuse voters rather than generate profit. He observes that fake stories are amplified by bots and foreign actors, often using AI-generated images such as photos of people being arrested while handcuffed. Rogan proposes that fact-checks proving stories false should result in those posts being removed from platforms.
Konstantin Kisin suggests implementing "digital border enforcement" to identify the geographic origin of social media comments. He notes that most people form political opinions based on perceived social consensus rather than independent analysis, making bot-driven manipulation particularly effective at creating false impressions of widespread agreement.
The conversation examines how social media monetization incentivizes negative engagement over positive content. Outrageous or contrarian takes generate more interaction than measured commentary. Rogan acknowledges that this dynamic has become his business model, while Kisin notes that Trigonometry has recently hosted guests across the political spectrum including David Pakman, Dave Smith, and Steven Crowder.
Rogan explains his preference for hosting honest, good-faith conversationalists rather than propagandists or party loyalists. He contrasts this approach with the Piers Morgan model of interrupting guests. Rogan mentions interest in interviewing Bernie Sanders again, noting that while he disagrees with many of Sanders' positions, he does not view him as a bad person.
Rogan compares climate advocacy to a comedy routine that has lost meaning through repetition. He references a recent article suggesting global warming may have prevented an imminent ice age, noting that 1970s narratives warned of a coming ice age. The discussion references Leonard Nimoy's "In Search Of" episode on the topic.
Rogan claims that more Europeans die from heat-related causes during summer than Americans die from gun violence. The group references a fact-check showing Europe had an estimated 61,672 heat-related deaths in one summer compared to 48,000 US firearm deaths (including suicides and homicides) over the full year. They also discuss that 364,000 people die annually from cold across 30 European countries.
The guests note that Britain lacks widespread air conditioning, with Kisin stating most places do not have it. Foster mentions that air conditioning is viewed negatively due to energy consumption concerns. They discuss that British infrastructure and housing are designed to retain heat, making extreme temperatures more dangerous. Temperatures reached 37-38°C (approximately 100°F) in recent years.
Kisin argues that climate science relies on modeling rather than predictable, measurable phenomena like gravity. He notes that Britain produces only 1% of global carbon emissions, suggesting that reducing emissions to zero would have negligible climate impact while destroying the economy. Britain has the world's highest industrial electricity prices as a result of climate policies.
The conversation addresses increased global vegetation and leaf coverage, attributed to higher carbon dioxide levels that plants consume. Rogan argues that green energy policies benefit corporations through government contracts and mandates rather than genuine environmental concern.
Kisin reveals plans to purchase an electric vehicle due to tax incentives that make higher-quality cars more affordable through business write-offs. He acknowledges that these incentive structures benefit electric vehicle manufacturers.
Rogan discusses efforts to ban marijuana in Texas, noting that alcohol sales have declined significantly. He suggests GLP-1 medications (Ozempic and similar drugs) as a factor, with millions of people using them for weight loss while sometimes claiming calorie restriction instead.
Kisin argues that people lack substantive knowledge on complex issues and default to slogans from prominent figures. He theorizes that the political left's secular nature creates a vacuum where traditional moral frameworks once existed, leading to more extreme positions.
Rogan suggests that religion provides moral scaffolding and community structure. He cites the orderly behavior in church parking lots as evidence that Christianity produces positive social effects. He contrasts this with potential behavior at progressive political rallies, particularly regarding individuals displaying conservative symbols like American flags on vehicles.
Kisin references his belief at age 59 that humans have a psychological need for religion, noting its presence throughout human history for thousands of years.
Human beings have had religion for thousands of years because it serves as a fundamental way the human mind works. When religion is absent, people substitute other causes that function as religion, such as progressive movements or climate change activism. Those who challenge these substitute beliefs are treated as heretics and infidels by adherents who behave like religious zealots. People become uncomfortable when confronted with alternative perspectives, mirroring religious intolerance.
Jonathan Haidt observed that religion functions as a social technology for achieving group cohesion and providing personal meaning. Christianity in particular excels at promoting gratitude as a daily practice of acknowledging good fortune, which changes how people experience life and makes it harder to become politically deranged.
Data shows 78% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents identify with a religion, compared to 60% of Democrats. Religiously unaffiliated individuals comprise about 39% of the population. Polling reliability is questioned because only certain types of people answer surveys, potentially skewing results toward less engaged demographics.
There's been an increase in LGBT pastors and progressive Christianity that promotes interpretations biblical scholars find unsupported by scripture. Examples include claims that the Bible supports abortion or that God is non-binary. The critique suggests that if traditional religious texts are being reinterpreted, problematic elements like slavery and violence against women should be addressed first rather than focusing on contemporary social issues.
Those raised Catholic often prefer traditional mass elements like Latin services and incense rituals. Historical references note that early church incense ceremonies may have used cannabis, which would have created communal bonding effects among participants.
Colorado pioneered cannabis legalization with approximately 39% taxation, directing revenue toward schools and public services. The economic comparison shows that $600 spent on alcohol during a night out contrasts sharply with cannabis costs, where the same amount would last approximately one month. Current California joint prices range from $15-20, with premium products reaching $100 and containing THC crystals or kief dusting.
Extended alcohol abstinence periods of eight months demonstrate improved energy consistency, better daily functioning, and improved waking states. While moderate consumption like a glass of wine with dinner has acceptable trade-offs, additional intake provides diminishing returns. Glutathione supplementation, particularly liposomal forms, offers protective benefits when taken before, during, and after alcohol consumption. Alcohol functions as both a diuretic and immunosuppressant, necessitating electrolyte and amino acid supplementation.
Medical professionals with visible health issues sometimes dismiss vitamin supplementation in favor of balanced diet claims. Personal experience demonstrates measurable differences between periods of vitamin use versus non-use, supported by peer-reviewed studies showing vitamin benefits.
British medical education remains free through college level, after which students pay for advanced degrees. Medical liability insurance costs are lower in Britain due to different legal frameworks and less litigious culture, where patients rarely pursue lawsuits unless experiencing severe harm.
American service culture emphasizes customer satisfaction with staff appearing genuinely pleased to assist, while British service culture more closely resembles Soviet-era approaches where customers feel they're receiving favors. This cultural difference becomes immediately apparent to visitors transitioning between countries.
Desmond Morris's book "The Human Zoo" documents how urban environments create responses in humans similar to zoo conditions in animals: elevated interpersonal violence, increased mental illness rates, reduced reproductive behavior, and higher depression incidence. Moving from high-density urban areas to rural settings produces noticeable improvements in stress levels and overall wellbeing.
Manhattan residents often maintain secondary properties like Fire Island homes to escape urban intensity, using the contrast between environments to make city living sustainable. The 24-hour nature of New York provides entertainment options like 24-hour pool halls and late-night dining, but creates sleep disruption from constant activity. Young adults find urban energy appealing, but family formation changes priorities toward quieter environments.
Relocating progressively further from urban centers correlates with increased relaxation and reduced stress. Rural living provides exposure to wildlife including mountain lions, bobcats, and deer, along with natural soundscapes of birds and natural observation opportunities like hawks hunting.
Children from dense urban environments with concrete surroundings and tower blocks exhibit different behavioral patterns compared to those in natural settings. Week-long countryside residential programs reveal calmer, more focused versions of the same children, suggesting humans evolved for natural rather than urban environments.
Areas like Big Bend, Texas offer exceptional night sky visibility where the Milky Way becomes prominent. Urban light pollution eliminates star visibility, creating environments where people focus exclusively on immediate concerns rather than gaining cosmic perspective. This absence of natural wonder may contribute to narrow worldviews and reduced philosophical contemplation.
Public figures experience constant social media criticism and fabricated claims, with lies being particularly damaging compared to legitimate criticism of mistakes or communication issues. The incentive structure of social media rewards engagement over accuracy, creating environments where hot takes and controversial content generate more attention than nuanced discussion.
Long-form podcast discussions demonstrate audience hunger for substantive conversations where participants acknowledge different viewpoints and engage in genuine dialogue. This format allows listeners to form accurate impressions of individuals rather than relying on distorted social media representations or clip-based content.
The show had an initial rule against booking sitting politicians, but growing interest in politics led to more political conversations. Once politicians appeared on the show, audiences began perceiving it as taking sides, which shifted the tone dramatically. Political attack ads have become extremely aggressive, with examples including claims that Ken Paxton loves pedophiles and that James Tallerica wants to take someone's daughter, rape her, and then trans her.
Well, listen, give it another 30 years, right? It could completely flip swing. When the Republicans are transing your kids, that's when you know you really are [__].
The discussion considered how political positions on cultural issues could theoretically reverse over decades, with one example being a future where someone living a gay lifestyle is secretly straight and gets exposed by TMZ.
Illegal immigration was described as a significant problem under the previous administration. The View fact-checked a statement about the border being wide open, claiming Biden had told people not to come. Greg Abbott, the Texas governor, bused migrants to New York City to force other jurisdictions to deal with the consequences of open border policies.
Red Cross stations were reportedly set up to provide maps and guidance for illegal entry. Once inside the country, migrants received plane tickets, EBT cards, cell phones, and placement in luxury hotels. A disproportionate number of illegal immigrants were moved to swing states, with specific mention of Haitian communities in Ohio. The census counts all humans regardless of legal status, which directly affects congressional seat allocation.
Kamala Harris discussed adding more people to the Supreme Court and turning Washington DC and Puerto Rico into states. The argument was that these moves would provide permanent political control.
Significant measurable drops in crime were attributed to the FBI under Cash Patel. However, concerns were raised about underreporting, particularly in Los Angeles where robberies and car break-ins are allegedly ignored by authorities. People living in Los Angeles described the city as resembling Gotham City, a stark contrast to conditions 15 years ago.
A Venezuelan Uber driver emphasized that the vast majority of Venezuelans want to come to America to work, not to cause trouble. However, he warned that allowing criminals through the border would create negative stereotypes affecting all Venezuelans, with references to the Tren de Aragua gang known for drug trafficking, killings, and gang activity.
The discussion examined whether allowing criminals across the border was an unintended side effect of pursuing more congressional seats and district control, or whether it was a calculated strategy to justify increased surveillance measures like Flock cameras and phone monitoring under the premise of restoring street safety.
Andrew Yang stated that neither political party genuinely wants to solve the border crisis because it provides campaign talking points and fundraising opportunities. Anna Paulina Luna confirmed that certain issues are deliberately left unresolved to maintain political leverage.
The accumulation of power in large corporations and government was identified as a major concern. Many individuals in these institutions operate amorally rather than immorally, focused solely on winning elections, making money, and increasing bonuses without moral consideration.
Corporate environments create diffusion of responsibility where employees feel disconnected from harmful corporate actions. Examples included toxic waste dumping in developing countries and lawyers defending guilty clients because it is their job. The culture prioritizes making maximum money, with employees working 16-hour days on Adderall, aspiring to acquire houses in the Hamptons, yachts, and private jets.
Trigonometry is described as a family-owned restaurant providing information and conversation to audiences. There is a responsibility to avoid putting harmful content into the information stream, even if it would generate more views. The show deliberately avoids guests who would create 10 times the views through controversy.
Piers Morgan's business model involves having people yell at each other in short segments. Long-form interviews, even from the same host, can be excellent. The short time constraints of certain formats inevitably lead to conflict-driven content.
Chris Williamson described post-content clarity, similar to post-nut clarity, where people feel regret after consuming outrage-based content. A personal content filtering system was described where only content sent by trusted friends is consumed, with the exception of bathroom browsing.
The author of Uneducated taught in a ghetto school in East London where survival concerns took precedence over culture war topics like decolonization. Students throwing chairs made such discussions impossible. Book promotion focused on culture war topics that were irrelevant to the actual teaching experience.
With Trigonometry approaching 2 million subscribers, there is increased recognition of responsibility to challenge inaccurate statements and properly prepare for interviews so arguments can be properly examined.
The notion that people have shorter attention spans was rejected. Audiobook popularity was cited as evidence that people want substantive content. Spotify entered podcasting partly because of high audiobook streaming numbers. People seek intellectual stimulation, and when positive content isn't available, their attention gets hijacked by outrage content.
While television still has higher absolute viewership numbers than YouTube and podcasts combined, the direction of travel shows traditional TV declining while digital platforms grow.
The Outdoor Boys channel had 20 million subscribers with videos regularly reaching 90 million views before the creator stopped producing content. Speculation centered on the creator involving his family in videos and the psychological impact of sudden fame on family members who didn't sign up for it.
Child actors face unique psychological challenges because they receive adoration without earning it through normal developmental processes. The comparison was made to improperly mixed cement that sets incorrectly and cannot be fixed. Examples included Zac Efron and Macaulay Culkin, who have spoken openly about their struggles.
Child stars miss normal developmental milestones including earning respect through behavior and ability, learning social dynamics through dating, and experiencing consequences for actions. Instead, they exist in environments where everyone caters to them, nobody challenges them, and there are no guardrails during critical developmental years.
The absence of consequences during development explains why rock stars destroy hotel rooms. They can engage in destructive behavior because there are no repercussions. Parents of child actors sometimes steal money from their children's earnings.
When child actors become successful, people emerge with ideas for converting their money into their own. Many child stars face mishandled funds and theft from family members handling their earnings. One approach to avoiding these situations is simply refusing to invest in anything presented, which diffuses the pressure.
Child stars often experience more success than most people encounter in their entire lives, yet this success ends by age 16 when their appearance fundamentally changes. They enter adolescence with typical awkwardness while looking back at a time when everyone loved them and now no one does.
Tutankhamun became pharaoh of Egypt at age nine. A 2010 DNA study concluded his parents were probably brother and sister, with his father identified as Pharaoh Akhenaten and his mother as an unnamed mummy known as the younger lady, likely his sister.
His body differed from idealized royal images, with researchers reporting a club foot and damage to foot bones suggesting difficulty walking. Walking sticks found in his tomb support this interpretation. He became king around age nine and died around 18 or 19. Malaria parasite DNA was detected, and researchers proposed malaria, bone problems, and a fractured leg may have contributed to death, though no single cause was conclusively established.
His tomb was found intact because he was disrespected after burial, with rubble placed over it so no one could visit. This preservation explains why King Tut remains the most recognized Egyptian pharaoh despite being considered a weak ruler.
The Zep Tepi kings list in Egypt extends back over 30,000 years, with earlier rulers claimed to have lived for extended periods like 200,000 or 50,000 years. This aligns with the Sumerian kings list, which shows accepted historical figures with normal lifespans, but earlier kings ruling for 35,000 years.
Ancient calendars used a 13 lunar cycle system with 13 months of 28 days each, totaling 364 days, requiring occasional leap years. The shift to a 12-month calendar with varying month lengths of 28, 30, or 31 days represents a significant change from earlier systems.
The temple of Abu Simbel demonstrates sophisticated engineering, designed so a beam of light enters at specific times to light the altar. Evidence exists of ancient tool use including high-speed drills and unknown technology capable of scooping sections out of rock faster than copper and sand friction methods would allow.
Dr. Robert Schoch from Boston University identified water erosion on the Sphinx temple walls, suggesting thousands of years of rainfall created deep fissures. Since heavy rainfall in the Nile Valley occurred around 9,000 years ago, this indicates possible construction dates of 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.
Herodotus wrote about enormous underground labyrinths in Egypt that he considered greater spectacles than the pyramids at Giza.
When the Greek Empire took over ancient Egypt, a fusion occurred between the civilizations. Greek elites created artificial gods that both Greek and Egyptian populations could worship, providing a bridge between the two religious systems while allowing continued worship of original deities.
This represents an age-old tactic for unifying populations under shared religious frameworks, similar to how Constantine promoted Christianity throughout Rome.
Genghis Khan took a different approach to religious tolerance, stating he didn't care what religion people practiced as long as they paid taxes and didn't cause problems. Dan Carlin noted that historians discuss Genghis Khan's positive impacts on civilization, including opening trade routes to the east, despite his status as one of history's biggest mass murderers who killed approximately 10% of the global population.
Tamerlane, known as a mini Genghis Khan, controlled territory stretching from Constantinople to China, Russia, and India. His empire didn't last as long because his descendants lacked his capabilities. In Uzbekistan, his statue remains in Tashkent city center, and his tomb exists in Samarkand.
A story claims Soviet archaeologists opened Tamerlane's tomb despite local warnings that whoever opened it would unleash a conqueror greater than himself. The tomb was opened on June 21, 1941, and Hitler invaded the Soviet Union the next day on June 22, 1941, beginning Operation Barbarossa.
After opening Tamerlane's tomb, Soviet archaeologists gave him a proper Islamic burial and returned him to the tomb. The next day marked the pivotal turning point in the Battle of Stalingrad, after which Soviet forces pushed forward and won the war.
When Mongols invaded Baghdad in Mesopotamia, they slaughtered the population and the river reportedly flowed red with blood. They knocked civilizations back to the stone age. A story describes an envoy traveling to Jin China who encountered what appeared to be snow-capped mountains that were actually piles of bones from over a million people Genghis Khan had killed. Roads became impassable due to rotting human flesh turning into mud.
Alan Watts wrote "The Age of Insecurity" in 1952 about society changing rapidly due to technology and culture, creating widespread anxiety. This perspective shows that nostalgic views of past decades as problem-free periods are inaccurate, as people have always faced challenges and caused chaos.
Modern child-rearing practices differ significantly from previous generations, particularly in the Soviet Union where physical discipline was considered normal. Current understanding of trauma impacts explains why such practices are no longer accepted.
Concerns exist about potential U.S. military action against Iran after midterms, with speculation that current poll numbers might influence timing decisions. The Strait of Hormuz situation involves boats requiring battleship escorts due to ongoing threats.
The UK defense minister suggested citizens stockpile three days of supplies due to infrastructure vulnerability, though three days appears minimal compared to actual needs.
The original term geopolitics refers to how geography, including a country's location, borders, natural resources, and ocean access, influences political power rather than simply relations between countries.
Russia's westernmost 20% contains 80% of what matters to the country, explaining historical westward expansion attempts to create buffer zones. Ukraine's mineral wealth represents significant economic value.
The Iraq situation demonstrates how assumptions about quick military victories based on previous operations like Desert Storm proved incorrect, with the conflict lasting 20 years instead of the expected rapid resolution.
Robert Pape, a military air power analyst, predicted the course of the conflict with Iran before the invasion. He describes the situation as an escalation trap that America has created for itself. According to his analysis, Iran is now positioned to become a regional hegemon, gaining more power than they had before the conflict began. Iran has been given legitimacy to block the Strait of Hormuz, and they are becoming more powerful against Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Israel.
Iran controls a significant amount of oil and its distribution. The Saudis have a pipeline to the Red Sea that bypasses the Strait, but the Houthis are currently bombing that pipeline extensively. Pape argues that America needs to get out of this situation as quickly as possible before it worsens, comparing Iran's position to Russia in 1941 where survival is at stake despite massive casualties.
Iran holds the global economy in what is described as a rear naked choke through their control of energy routes, which explains current gas and diesel prices. The price increases began when the Iran conflict started, not during the four-year Ukraine war. Iran can sustain this pressure because for them it is about survival, whereas American leaders face midterm elections, potential loss of congressional control, investigations, and impeachment proceedings.
This war has weakened America's position and its leaders, giving Iran more leverage. Iran is watching American political struggles and knows that every day the conflict continues increases their negotiating power. Their goal is to get American bases out of the Middle East entirely.
American bases in the Middle East have been bombed, with over 20 facilities affected. The destruction is described as extensive, though not fully visible through public videos. Asymmetrical warfare using drones presents unique challenges because traditional countermeasures are ineffective. The use of monofilament line to control drones makes anti-drone weapons useless, leaving bases vulnerable to attacks that can cause billions of dollars in damage in a single night.
An ex-special forces contact stated that putting boots on the ground in Iran would be impossible due to the mountainous terrain. No regime change has ever been achieved solely through air strikes. The question remains whether the decision to strike Iran was based on careful strategic planning or simply momentum from the Venezuela operation.
The concern is raised that decisions of this magnitude may lack proper deliberation and equal presentation of information. The Venezuela success may have created overconfidence, leading to the Iran operation without adequate consideration of potential outcomes. Questions persist about how much Trump was informed about possible scenarios and how information was managed or filtered before reaching him.
The pattern of expecting populations to rise up after leadership is removed has failed repeatedly, as seen in both Ukraine and Iran. The promise that people would support invading forces after taking out their leaders has not materialized. The ultimate responsibility for these decisions rests with those who authorize military action, despite foreign interests presenting selective information.
A divergence exists between Israel's foreign policy interests and those of the United States. While countries naturally pursue their own interests, American presidential administrations are responsible for decisions that benefit America. The economic impact is severe globally, with Europe and Australia facing diesel shortages. The UK has only two months of diesel supply, while most countries maintain approximately one year's worth.
One proposed resolution involves Trump negotiating a deal with Iran despite the damage already inflicted, then framing it as a victory. The concern about Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is acknowledged, given the regime's treatment of its own citizens. However, questions remain about whether Iran was actually close to developing nuclear weapons. The Ayatollah had issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons construction, though the reliability of such statements is debated.
Converting enriched uranium into actual nuclear weapons is technically complex, though knowledge of the process has spread since the Manhattan Project. Countries like India and Pakistan developed nuclear capabilities despite international expectations.
Robert Pape suggests that regional balancing through strengthening Saudi Arabia and the UAE could prevent escalation to nuclear levels. The reality may be that Iran, as a large country with significant natural resources and control over major energy arteries, will eventually develop nuclear weapons regardless of efforts to prevent it.
Countries with former empires, including Russia and Persia, maintain strong senses of pride and historical identity. Iran, with 90 million people and a territory larger than Britain, carries the legacy of the Persian Empire, creating resistance to perceived foreign domination.
Concerns exist about potential attacks on American infrastructure, including the power grid through cyber attacks. Questions remain about the number of individuals who entered the country over the past four years and whether some may be connected to terrorist cells. Estimates range from a low of 10 million to potentially over 20 million, though exact numbers are unknown.
Surface-to-air missile systems have been deployed at Mar-a-Lago and Donald Trump International Airport due to heightened threat assessments by the Secret Service.
Protests in America are often organized and paid for rather than organic. Evidence includes signs printed in advance for events that occurred only 24 hours earlier. Some individuals make careers from attending protests, receiving payment and pre-made signs. This contrasts with the lack of visible protests against the Iran bombing within the United States, despite international demonstrations occurring in 145 cities.
The Iran decision undermined Trump's appeal as an outsider who would avoid forever wars and prioritize America First policies. When campaign promises about avoiding foreign entanglements are broken, people become increasingly disenfranchised and disconnected from the democratic process. This creates dangerous conditions where citizens feel their votes do not matter, leading to disengagement from democratic participation.
That power vacuum still needs to be filled. And then you have people going, well, what we actually need is a king or what we really need is to do our own thing. And that's how the fractures appear within society. And you got those weird kids today that think we should burn it all down and start from scratch. It's like, "Okay, show me your plan. What's your plan? What's your burn it all down like long range strategy?"
Well, that's why I always look, I'm not a historian, but it's something I've always thought about. I think calling the American Revolution a revolution is inaccurate and that leads to a lot of confusion because it wasn't a revolution. To me, a revolution is when you overthrow the existing regime in your country. The Russian Revolution, you have the Tsar and then the Bolsheviks come in, they overthrow the Tsar, they install a new government. In the French Revolution, you have a monarchy. The revolutionaries come in, they execute the aristocracy and the king. They institute a new government. The American Revolution is really a war of independence. It's you guys saying, "We're going to separate away and in our part of the world, we're going to have our own government. You guys do whatever you want." So America was not actually created in a revolution. It's just people seeking independence. It's like if Scotland broke off from the United Kingdom. And that I think changes the mentality because revolutions actually usually end very badly.
It's a very bad thing that happens. They're very violent. Lots of people get killed. The people who did the revolution usually get killed off first. Then they kill off the people who came. This is what Stalin did. His purges were just about, you've the revolution has happened and now you've got all of these psychotic revolutionaries who don't know how to build anything. They just want to tear everything down because that's what revolutionaries do and now we got to get rid of them. The revolutions are generally not the sort of thing you want to be around for when they happen. And so the tearing tear it all down thing that doesn't appeal to me at all.
Well, it's just young kids that are saying this. It's like this is these are the young Democrat socialists and Marxists. They want to tear it all down. It's a great message that resonates without actually having thought it through. It's like you see that guy's pissing you off. Go punch him in the face. Okay. What if he punches you back? What if his friends show up? What if there's a guy in a car across the street who sees it and he grabs you and throws you into traffic? Like there's a lot that can happen. Let's play this out. Let's think this through. If you destroy America, what takes its place? Where does the money go? Where does your money go? Who takes care of the streets? And I always say to these people who are like, you know, I'm a socialist. I'm go, you ever talk to a Cuban? Talk to a Cuban. Talk to a Venezuelan Russian. Talk to a Russian. If it or talk to anybody from Eastern Europe, anybody who's really experienced actual communism, they're not fond of it.
No. No, they're not. I remember I used to go to a coffee shop when I was doing when I was writing for standup and I got to know a guy who ran the coffee shop. He was a Cuban guy and we used to talk about communism all the time. It's one way to pass the day. And he actually said something to me. He goes and because I was getting very frustrated at this point that around about 2018 2019 this the talk of socialism came back and it was very triggering to me on a personal level and I was very upset and I was saying to him he was getting really dead and it was and I said to him like how do I how do you fight this and he goes you can't and I go what do you mean he goes look Francis you know when you argue with somebody from the west who has grown up surrounded by this and you're saying about communism, they can't understand it. They can't comprehend it. It's like saying to a really rich kid, look, don't walk down that alley. Don't walk down it at night cuz something's bad going to happen to you. He goes, the only way they will ever truly understand is if they walk down the alley, they get hit on the back of the head, they feel the taste of blood in their mouth, that's when they get it. Until then, I hate to break it to you, but you're fighting a losing battle. And I'm talking as someone who grew up in Cuba, whose most of their family is Cuban, and have tried this time and time again. There is a part of me that is slightly fatalistic that goes, sometimes people need to see the mistakes for themselves. You have to fall down. You have to hurt your knees to realize like, oh, don't do that.
I also think we have to be honest and say that there is a thing going on in a lot of western societies where if you had assets in 2006 before the great financial crash you've done very well for the last 20 years but if you didn't your ability to buy a house to pay off your student loans all of that it's become more difficult and it's why that portion of society who feel that they've been locked out are feeling like they don't have a stake because they don't have a stake in society and that's when this kind of thing happens and I think that's something people people on the right and people like us who I think communism is the most evil ideology that's ever been tried just numerically speaking it's a fact but you have to make sure that it's not looking after people because it's what we do in Britain we just go here's a handout you know you don't need to work just here's some money shut the up right that doesn't work. But what you have to do is make sure that society feels fair to everybody or to as great a number of people as possible and that there's opportunity to advance. And for our generation, we are in our early 40s now. I for our generation, I'll be like Joe, if we hadn't started trigonometry and haven't had the amazing success that we've had that we're so grateful for, we'd be in that same boat. We'd be in the exactly same boat and we'd be struggling now going like this thing it doesn't work anymore and I think that's where a lot of this stuff is coming from.
So it's one of the things that I think people in the AI world don't really think about enough. What happens when even if we don't if even if we accept that actually in the long run jobs aren't going to all disappear and like all technology you create new jobs with it and all in the interim it's going to get very disruptive and in that time I really think Andrew Yang was on to something when he talked about the need to find a way yes you're creating all this beautiful wealth these five companies are creating all the wealth but you've got to find a way that the rest of society feels like they've got a shot as well. They've got an opportunity. And unless we do that, I think this path down to where a lot of people feel really locked out and angry and frustrated and betrayed, I think that it's understandable that they it's totally understandable. That's why the movie The Joker resonated so well. And I always say this, it's like society is basically a game. And you know you follow the rules, you do what you have to do and you will get the rewards at the end of it. The problem is if for young people, which is very very true, they feel they're not getting the rewards and everybody else is and they're working just as hard, if not harder than everyone else, eventually they're going to go, you know what, your game. And the board goes up in the air. And that's I think what we're seeing with young people. Sure. That's why they cheered when Luigi shot that United Healthcare guy. And that's crazy to me, but that's where it's coming from. It makes sense. And it's also that's the narrative that's being promoted in universities, you know, that kind of thinking, that revolutionary thinking, making it sexy. And so when you when you combine that and also the other things they've been taught for generations now is to hate their own society, its history, its culture. You put all that together, it's a dangerous mix. Fun times. So, but I really think that there is a way to address it. Which is that we have to think this is coming. People are locked out. How do we make sure they are included again?
Well, the if you ask the AI people, it's going to get super weird. Because the universal high income thing that you that you hear Elon talk about that would be that every citizen of the United States would have a stake in artificial intelligence and that you would get just like if you live in Alaska you get money from the oil companies you get a check people maybe people don't know this but if you live in Alaska you just you get a check when you're born or no you get every every month. You get an income. Wow. Let's find out how many people in Alaska get it and what's the parameters. You know, if you live on Native American reservations, like they get checks. If you're Native American, you know, you can get a check if you're a part of a tribe that has a casino. You know, you get a piece of the casino. And this is kind of what's going on with the United States when it comes to the consequences of AI and taking over automation, taking over jobs, taking over shipping, taking over commercial truck driving. You already see it all over Austin. You see these Whimos and cyber cabs. It's kind of nuts. I mean, I see as many of them sometimes as I do regular cars. They're It's really nuts how many Whimos you see. So those jobs are gone. They're taking jobs and this is just the beginning of the storm. These are the first raindrops of the storm that is the consequences of AI completely taking over every aspect of society which it'll probably do and do much better than what humans do. Then becomes the problem of your identity like how do you think of yourself as a person who works and you are you proud of that? Is that that who you are? You're proud to be useful and you're you know, you get great satisfaction out of your occupation. If all of a sudden your occupation is automated and you don't exist anymore, massive amounts of depression, massive amounts of drug addiction, and then you just give them a check, I don't know if that's going to be enough.
Well, to your point about Native American reservations, from what I understand, the kind of social outcomes of that are not great. So, here it is. No, not Well, the Native American one is particularly bleak, but we can get into that. Alaska pays eligible residents an annual dividend called the permanent fund dividend. For 2026, it's $1,200 per eligible person, including a $200 energy relief payment. So, it's 1,400 bucks a year. That's not much. But it's a little something per eligible person. Includes a 200 including a $200 energy relief payment. So, it's just 1,200 bucks. Yeah. So, if there's two people in your household that are eligible, like two, well, how many how old do you have to be to be eligible? Who receives it? Do you have is it a certain age? Is there an age requirement or is it all citizens or is it like voting citizens? Either way, it's not enough. No. Now the the real question is when you're dealing with AI and this infinite amount of wealth it's going to generate, how much is enough? You know, when when Elon says universal high income, what are we talking about here? Like what is what does that mean? Are you saying you're going to give everybody $500,000 a year? I'm not I'm on board. Okay. So then what happens? Are you Joe? This because this is the flip side of this conversation, which is you mentioned the Native American situation. It's like you know yourself. You take a lot of meaning from the things that you do. So just getting money. It's a dire straight song. Money for nothing. Yeah. And the chicks for free. Money. I'm not sure they Well, with AI girlfriends, maybe you're going to get the chicks for free. They were talking about it. They were talking about guys complaining about people on MTV. That wasn't really what the song was. Yeah. No, I know. But I guess I think what I'm saying is there's a difference from saying, "Hey, I'm Mark or I am Elon or I am Sam and I've taken your job and I'm Elon, I'm Mark, I'm Sam. I've taken your job. Here's $10,000 a month." There's a big difference there. And unless that problem, unless we as a society work out a way to do that, you don't have to be a genius to work out that's not a recipe for a stable, healthy society. Oh, so I I'll give you an I'll give you an example of something. So when I was teaching, I taught a kid. He was very low ability. He really struggled academically. So we I gave him work which was, you know, which was less challenging than other kids. Sometimes he would be okay. Sometimes he would play up cuz he understandably had self-esteem issues. One day he was playing up really, really badly. And I said, "Chris, look, you're going to be in detention." And I wanted to I never believed in just detention getting kids to be bored. I wanted him to be useful. And I was giving him what I thought was a punishment. I said, "Chris, you see all the pencils in the classroom? Every single pencil, I'm talking about colored pencils. I'm talking about ordinary. I want them sharpened and I want them perfect cuz we've got an art lesson after lunch." He went and did it. And when he brought the pencils back to me, he was so happy. He was so proud of himself because he felt useful. Cuz he felt useful and he said and I saw a side of him that I'd never seen before because finally he got given a job that he could do he could do to a very high standard and he was useful and part of something and he said something to me that actually kind of teared me up. He went can I come back tomorrow and do more? So he felt good. He felt good that he was useful and I think most people do.
Yeah. The real question is, is it possible to teach people differently in school? So, instead of teaching people facts that they need to memorize and having to sit in a chair and making sure that you're doing everything that you're told cuz someday you're going to have to have a job and that's you're going to have to learn how to behave this way. Is it possible that you could teach people, listen, money is not the problem anymore? Resources in terms of like your ability to feed yourself and put a roof over your head, that's not an issue anymore. Now your life is about pursuing your interests. But we have to teach people that from the jump. We have to teach people that from the time they're very young. The older people that are set in their ways, they're going to have a very difficult time changing and adapting. But and then also people are going to have a very hard time having the same kind of motivation that people have when they grow up poor. That's a superpower. Growing up poor is a superpower because it gives you a motivation like a drive that I don't think you get if you're a trust fund kid. Your parents are worth a lot of money. So, we're going to have to teach people to have internal motivation instead of external motivation. And we're going to have to teach people that there is a great benefit to to doing things that you don't want to do and then seeing the result to, you know, just putting off any sort of enjoyment that you might possibly have in the present time so that you can have more enjoyment in the future because you did that. You sacrificed and you figured something out. But we have to teach them how to that that way of thinking. And if you could teach them that listen man, you don't have to worry about money anymore. But that doesn't mean you don't have to worry about life. Like there's a lot of cool things that you can find that you can do with your life. But now do those things and get a sense of purpose from you learning about yourself while you're pursuing whatever it is. Whether it's becoming an author or whether it's, you know, whatever, making things, whatever it is, find a thing that you like and then teach people how to find the thing that interests them rather than finding just some menial job that's going to keep them depressed and just barely pay their bills.
I noticed this with my son. The thing he loves to do with me the most is like paint the fence. To him, that's like the happiest time that we have together. See progress. We we go and do something together that he feels is valuable. He's learning. He's doing it with me. Obviously, it's, you know, father and son time as well. But he would much rather paint a fence with me than he would play a game. Much rather interesting. It's more it's more meaningful for him, right? He's accomplishing something. Yeah. And learning a skill like you said, you know. Yeah. There's stuff that people can do. We have only been doing this thing, this show up at a job and and doing working in an office and show going to a city. This is super recent in human history. It's one of the reasons why subsistence tribes are so much happier than us because we've been doing that forever. And the human reward systems are structured in a way that like if you hunt and fish and grow your own food, that's normal. Like you're you you have very little anxiety. That's that the great Werner Herzog documentary Happy People. You know that documentary about the people that live in Siberia? Tell me about it. Oh, it's called Happy People, Life in the Tiger. And it's all about these fishermen and trappers and hunters that live in Siberia that have like no mental illness. They're all just happy and they live a completely subsistence lifestyle in one of the most brutal climates on Earth, Siberia. And you know, and they they're fine. Like they're having a good time. We're up and we think, "Oh my god, I could never live like that." But you're not happy. But they are happy. What is our goal? Is our goal to be happy? Because this thing that we've created, these jobs in in in corporations and in cubicles and this thing that is normal for us is not really normal for us. And we've kind of decided somewhere along the way that this is the only way that you have to have a job. And without a job, what do we do? What about the idea that something that the human race has created no longer makes it necessary for you to do a job anymore? Now instead of worrying about huntering hunting and gathering food, the next stage of being a human is pursuing interest. I mean, it could be a gigantic explosion of creativity and of innovation and art and who knows what people can do, especially with the access to technology that we have today and all the different things that people can we could we're just assuming that this way that we live that sucks that everybody hates is the only way to live. And I just don't buy that. I mean, clearly I'm biased because clearly I went through all those process of being poor and struggling and figuring out a way in life and then trying a bunch of very difficult things that other people avoided and finding a path. But I don't know if that's the only way to live. And I don't think it is. I think there's a a competitive drive in people that exist no matter what. And if we're not competing over finances anymore, maybe we'll compete over art or accomplishments or creativity or fill in the blank like whatever you decide to pursue. And of course, you're probably going to make more money doing that on top of the money you already get. It's not like we're going to go into a full communist day where the entire population only get $500,000 a year. We take from the billionaires. We distribute evenly. No, that's not what we're saying. We're saying like you start out with the 500,000 whatever it is. I don't know what the number is going to be. Start out with that and then you can still make money on top of that if you want. But do you have the drive to live a special life to live a fulfilled and interesting life?
Well, there's there's a soccer player, former soccer player called Danny Drinkwater, and he name it is a great name. He won the Premier League with Leicester City, which is a very very small team. It was one of the biggest surprises in football that no one ever predicted that this team would win. And he went on to have an amazing career. And towards the end of his career, he was struggling. He became he was be struggling with alcohol. And then all these pictures started to emerge of him after he finished his career on a building site. And people were taking the piss out of him going, "Ah, look how far Danny's fallen. He was a Premier League champion. Now he's working on a building site." And he there was an interview where he was like, I love my life. I'm training to be an electrician. I love doing this. I get a sense of achievement out of it. I get the same camaraderie that I got in the dress room with the boys on the on the building site. I'm actually happy. This is what I want to do because he realized that he still needed something. He still needed to achieve something. But because in our own kind of up way we see playing elite sport as somehow less than building something that it's lesser then. But he's actually found a purpose by doing that.
Well, it's interesting that you would never go up to someone who's working as an electrician go you loser working as an electrician. But if that person had been a movie star and then you know stopped doing movies and said I think I'd rather be an electrician. Then well you're allowed to talk about them. But it's just shitty humans are one of the biggest problems we have is we're not teaching people how to think or not I don't want to say teaching people how to think but informing them on the more beneficial ways to construct your life through thoughts and instead we're allowing these stupid kind of like that kind of like tear them all down behavior to go unchecked. Like you really, you know how transparently pathetically jealous that is to want to go up to a guy who is like an elite soccer player and you're upset cuz he has a job that's like yours. You know how nuts that is? That's nuts. It's a status thing. I think we had this great guy on called Will Stalker. He wrote a book called The Status Game. Are you familiar with it? Yes. Yeah. This is the This is the reason people do this, I think, is it's a status thing. So, Premier League footballer, high status, electrician, low status. And also, let's be honest, if you haven't got to where you've got to, where you wanted to in life, and you haven't got the status that you want, it's kind of satisfying for some people to see someone else fall down. Oh, yeah. And then you go, "Oh, I'm not the only one." Sure. It's actually one of the things I do really like about America. You have a kind of failure is just the step to the next success attitude here. A lot of people have that here. So, it's very normal for people to start a business, business doesn't work, they start the next one, doesn't work, start the next one, it pops. And actually, I was seeing stats, I can't remember where I got it, so I hope this isn't BS. Maybe Jamie can check. But I think with every business you start and fail, it increases your chance of succeeding. Well, not it increases, but if you start by the time you start the third business, your your chance of that business being successful is significantly higher than the first one. I think this is Elizabeth Holmes's strategy when she gets out of jail. By the way, her husband lives in town, lives in Austin, so we might be seeing her at the mothership one day. But I I think it's a really important thing that and I think we should all do it. We should we should all talk about our failures more because it's part of the journey. Yeah. You know, if success isn't as sweet when you get it first time round because you don't appreciate it. But if you fail and fail and fail again and finally something works, you just number one what that teaches you is gratitude. Number two is it shows other people, oh if he's failed and failed and failed and then made it, maybe I can do
Jiu-jitsu teaches that everybody starts out terrible, even those with prior martial arts experience. Joe Rogan had years of taekwondo and kickboxing but still got "mauled" when he started, describing it as humiliating but humbling. The process shows people growing from terrible beginners to skilled practitioners who can manhandle new students within a couple of years.
The journey involves repeated failure and learning, where "the mountain is so high" that you take one step and fall down. Many people lack the self-esteem to handle this process and quit, but those who persist learn to apply the same principles of failure, learning, and gradual improvement to anything in life, becoming better at being human.
Eddie Izzard's nickname on the comedy circuit in late 80s/early 90s was "No laughs, Eddie." His turnaround came from being relentlessly driven and focused, recognizing that if things weren't working, he needed to change. He was trying to do something radically different that nobody else was doing at the time, and once he nailed it, he exploded.
The lesson taken from Eddie was that you've got to go through the difficult process, accepting that most of life is failure. You have to take the hits, accept failure, take lessons from it, and move on. It's gradual, not the genius who steps on stage and immediately succeeds.
Eddie applied the same grinding strategy to physical feats like running around the entire UK without training. The documentary shows his feet with raw open skin falling off, requiring days off, yet he continued running marathons daily. He took maybe two days off total during the entire journey.
This contrasts with the TikTok generation's desire for quick results - wanting to be an influencer, get famous, or solve problems instantly with pills like Ozempic. The satisfaction comes from knowing you've climbed from the bottom to the top through the process.
The process makes you into the person you're supposed to be. Konstantin Kisin and Francis Foster discussed how being catapulted into interviewing serious people early on would have led to screwing it up badly. The miles on the clock - the mistakes, learning, growth, and becoming more humble - give you the ability to perform at a high level.
The process of doing stuff humbles you when you realize your ideas didn't work and you need to revise your thinking. Life is one long lesson in deferred gratification - giving up comfort, which is what kills you. It's more comfortable to sit at home on the sofa, but overcoming that gets you to the good stuff.
Universal high income presents the problem that people don't like to leave comfort and might just take the money and party. However, human adaptability suggests people would eventually realize that vegging out - playing video games non-stop - sucks after the initial fun wears off. Most people grow out of their 20s party phase.
Many comedians remain in a "frozen adolescence" at 45, with open-ended schedules, zero discipline, making enough from weekend work to pay monthly bills, then drinking, eating poorly, and playing video games. Some get married and have kids, which shifts their attitude toward seriousness.
Universal basic income could end starvation, lack of food, and struggling to pay bills, thereby reducing the stress that drives crime. There's likely a long transitional period due to ingrained behaviors and personality flaws, but once society settles, crime could be radically reduced.
The current extreme wealth inequality creates situations where in some countries, if you don't have, you will never have. With UBI, the wealth generated is so extreme and jobs are gone, but people have money without needing to work, mitigating fear and anger.
The encouraging aspect is human adaptability and that the things that matter - family, human connection, meaningful work or meaningful activity - have always mattered. Konstantin enjoys chopping wood he could buy pre-chopped because he likes doing it with his son and teaching him, preferring hands-on activities over paying others.
The transition to AI-driven economies will be challenging, and those developing AI should consider giving as much away as possible so everyone feels included, rather than needing "robot defenders" for mansions.
Greek mythology, particularly the Odyssey, captivates students from vastly different backgrounds - first or second generation immigrants, incredibly poor - because it addresses the human condition: struggle and overcoming. Christopher Nolan's retelling draws crowds not because it's "anti-woke" but because it's a story about confronting demons, overcoming them, and the importance of family.
Most people just want a fairer, better world with different approaches to achieving it. Seeing each other as enemies or avatars prevents transcending division, but recognizing shared humanity allows overcoming differences.
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