Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder
In a Nutshell
Ivan Zhao refounded Notion twice—first in Kyoto after missing product-market fit, then in Cancun to rebuild it as an AI-native company. He is shifting the organization toward a flatter, "jazz band" structure where AI handles information flow and routine decisions, while humans focus on taste, direction, and high-agency work. Hiring now prioritizes curiosity, agency, and value alignment over experience, with roles blurring as designers, PMs, and engineers work directly with models in a technology-first process.
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Ivan Zhao introduced a company mantra: wanting to be a jazz band, not a marching band. This reflects a self-reflecting value system and auto-equilibrium with his own personality. He has been hiring more jazz band people, and AI developments over the past two to two and a half years have allowed these types of people to shine more. The conversation explores whether this represents a new mode beyond founder mode and manager mode, with "Jasmo" suggested as a possible name.
Ivan Zhao is described as the refounder of Notion. He started the company years ago, but in 2015 lacked product-market fit. He and his co-founder moved to Kyoto and restarted the company, rebuilding it from scratch. After achieving product-market fit, the company took off. In 2023, he repeated this refounding approach around generative AI during an offsite in Cancun, restarting the company again. He is viewed as the canonical example of how a SaaS company can transition into an AI company. Zhao is very AI-native in how he organizes the company, compensates people, and builds today.
Zhao took a detour from traditional founder mode thinking by trying to delegate and grow the company. Notion remained very small in its early days, with under 10 people around product-market fit in early 2019 to 2020. The company became profitable because it was small. They raised venture capital in the early days, which was tough—the first five years involved scraping for money. This contrasted with the current era, where the lack of product-market fit created despair and uncertainty about direction. The company stayed small and tasted the benefits: profitability, easier fundraising, and being default alive. They resisted growing team size significantly.
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