The Greatest Climber Alive: I Shouldn't Have Attempted That Climb!
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It drives me crazy that nobody else thinks about risk this way. People call me crazy for taking risks, but at least I'm choosing them. People party every weekend, get buzzed, and drive home. Sedentary people staying home playing video games face higher risk of heart disease. Everyone takes unchosen risks and dies anyway, so take smart, calculated risks, do what you want, and die happy.
Alice Honold scaled one of the world's tallest skyscrapers.
People conclude from brain scans that I don't experience fear because my amygdala lights up less on scary images. I hate the brain stuff because it boxes me as different. I'm a middle-class suburban kid with no athletic family. After 20 years climbing 5 days a week and being scared, I respond differently than average. There was emotional turmoil, periods of trying hard but not being good enough, living in a car with a couple hundred bucks a month for 10 years. You can't master a craft overnight. People don't see the persistence required.
How do you create conditions to out-persist others?
Most scared moment: expedition to Antarctica, hoping it would get better but it worsened. I could die.
Do you converse with your partner before such climbs? She wrote a letter: "Obviously, this is your worst nightmare, but we all have to do scary things sometimes, Alex."
Speaker asks for subscriptions as they approach a milestone; 69% of listeners haven't subscribed.
To understand Alex, start with childhood circumstances. Fingerprints from upbringing define anomalies like his.
Alex: How deep do you want to go? Parents had fraught relationship, stayed together for kids, tense home. Mom very driven, high-performing; dad deeply depressed, not living best life. After divorce, dad happier but died. Never saw him blossom.
Mom speaks 7-8 languages, plays every instrument, artistically minded in classical arts. Wanted kids to do that too. I'm a deep disappointment.
Mom's phrase: something like "not good enough" or "almost doesn't count" (pressing a ka).
Alex's go-to: Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Better to try, fail quickly, learn, move forward than be crippled by perfectionism. Mom: if you can't do it right, don't do it. She's accomplished much that way.
Unemotional household, no affection. Safe, relatively happy. Close to extended family, grandparents, aunts, uncles. Seemed totally happy until comparing to others' families later.
Mom's affection slightly conditional on performing well, being a good kid.
Climbing photos with sister at age 6-8. Why climbing? Why not? Freaking cool. Elemental like running or swimming, basic movement. Innate love of being on top, big views, expansive air.
Never thought it could be a career. Even starting full-time rock climbing, no professional scene; fringe, small industry. Not motivated by money.
Father died season before full-time climbing; left retirement to sister and Alex. Sister finished college; Alex put in bonds, lived off $300/month, in car, stole mom's minivan, camping as 19-year-old.
Lived in Ford Econoline van for 10 years (ages 20-30), bought for $10k. Original buildout scrappy with uncle's scrap wood. Couldn't stand up initially. Saved money living in van 10 years.
Met wife at 30, switched to bigger ProMaster Dodge van (in Free Solo), could stand up.
Three buildouts over 10 years; last classy with stove.
Mom performance-focused but supportive of path, especially young "gap year" phase. External validation helped family accept: good at this random thing others recognize.
Mix of rock climbing, free soloing, speed climbing, hard climbing, expeditions, new routes.
Free soloing: climbing without rope, no protection. Most known for it now, but does other climbing with rope.
Alex 40 years old. Graph from age 18: slow start, flat/growing, jumps with Free Solo, grows faster, huge jump with building climb.
18-29 not enduring; best time, loved it. Would restart from zero happily; tapped out western US climbs.
From 18-30, climbed everything in sight, learning/growing. Now strategic; easy climbing tires without gains, like elite runner jogging miles.
Always challenged self, next push. Not optimizing for rich (would've finished college, got job).
Interviews with non-traditional careers (comedians, magicians) show 18-30 optimizing non-money/fame, then traction.
Winner-take-all: best in field earns insane money; struggling phase hard until "the dude that does the thing."
18-30 best period despite emotional turmoil, wanting girlfriend, living in car, improving, uncertainty.
Dad's death catalyst; graph starts at 19 (left university at 18).
Sad, hard; regrets no relationship, kids no grandfather. Died unexpectedly at 55, heart attack in airport.
Reminded of own mortality, big impact on career/life/climbing.
People avoid risks thinking they live forever, but die anyway. Better die at 55 proud after full life than 78 regretting inaction. Everyone lives like immortal.
Take no risk, still die; take smart risks, die happy.
Live intentionally: choose risks, use time as wanted.
High thrill-seeking, sensation-seeking, urgency (time short, get on with it).
High conscientiousness, perseverance (same as low boredom), low neuroticism (general anxiety, spinning on trivialities). Always low neuroticism, doesn't stress like others.
Can learn via meditation to let go.
Nature/nurture: loves climbing (30 years training). Biggest difference: limitless capacity to climb because loves it. Would work through genetics/upbringing if loved it as much.
Advice to kids (two girls): Do you, find what you love, go hard, learn skills, get good.
If told as kid: train climbing rest of life.
Being a professional rock climber means being physically uncomfortable all the time—hiking uphill with a heavy backpack in cold, windy conditions. But if you love it, it doesn't feel hard. The key for a kid is to find the thing that doesn't feel like hard work.
At 19, first seeing El Cap as a climber, it looked impossible. Within a couple seasons, after climbing bigger walls, a friend and he set a season goal to climb El Cap in a day. Progression: from trying to get up it, to faster, to hands and feet with protection. Climbed El Cap 60 times on different routes over seasons. Eventually considered free soloing it, as in the film Free Solo.
"Wow, I've spent 10 years building up on this thing."
Free Solo documentary shows direct preparation over two years, but not the prior nine years since 2006, spending three months a year climbing Yosemite walls. This is the illusion with great achievers like athletes, sprinters, Ronaldo, or Messi—you don't see the whole life invested. It looks like a magic trick, like watching on Netflix.
"I've literally been climbing 5 days a week for 30 years."
Climbers are scared all the time with low-level fear because climbing is fundamentally scary—always visualizing consequences even with a rope (rope breaks, gear fails). After years, you get good at managing it.
Brain scan in Free Solo compared his amygdala to a control subject shown scary images. His lit up less, leading to misconception he doesn't experience fear. But it was black-and-white photos in an fMRI machine—totally safe, sealed metal tube. After 20 years of climbing and real fear, photos don't trigger much.
"I have an amygdala and it works."
Real takeaway: after 20 years of conditioning, he responds differently than average, like a monk in an fMRI. Inspiring—means we can all grasp fears better through exposure therapy.
Host's example: 10 years ago, took 7 hours for a 2-minute on-camera video due to fear; now speaks easily after exposure.
Alex suggests host do fMRI now vs. 10 years ago. Psychologists confirm exposure therapy. Alex overcame public speaking fear (was shy, terrifying) via Free Solo film tour—now easy.
"There's no hack. You just get really freaking scared over and over for so long and eventually it's not that scary anymore."
Enduring way: repeated exposure makes you unafraid. Hacks like loud music work for gravity-assisted sports (cliff jump on skis, big drop in kayak)—commit and it's done. Climbing is slow, move-by-move, fear creeps in.
Video of Half Dome free solo (2008, one of first major ones, made him professional). Half Dome: 2,000-foot granite face in Yosemite, North Face logo, iconic, vertical Northwest Face. Minimal preparation, biggest he'd free soloed. Got scared, off route, confused, extreme panic near top on upper slab—hardest part. Tried walking face-out across ledge (normally hand traverse or crawl); terrifying, bailed halfway, shuffled back, changed strategy.
Mental crisis: "Oh my god, what am I doing? This is bad. I'm so screwed." Not full panic, but realization of wrong choice. Ledge narrows, feet over lip, wall bulges forcing heels back, ~1,700-1,800 ft drop.
Past falls: slid down icy couloir (called mother), broken arm multiple times as kid, routine big falls with rope/protection.
Climbing safer than thought, comparable to skiing (recreational skiers die in tree wells, accidental cliffs). Binary: totally safe or die, but odds of dying very small—keeps you alert without real hurt risk. Includes free soloing: couple died, but most cutting-edge free soloists died in adjacent activities (wingsuit base jumping, swept to sea by rogue wave on shore). Not as deadly as photos suggest.
Tommy in Free Solo doc: "Most free soloists are dead now"—kind of true but overstated; died on easy terrain or adjacent risks.
Finance bro or choreographer/opera singer—sitting at computer in cubicle typing spreadsheets, rules, managers, arbitrary tasks. Contrarian, hates hoops. Most live that way. In New York subway, felt couldn't live packed, following beaten path daily—boring. His life (nature, moving body, adventures) more normal/fundamental. Seems like a free man.
Follow your own goals, live in line with values, pursue what you find important with all you've got. Long rambling conversation.
Early 20s-30s: lived like Buddhist monk in van, reading books, climbing—no drinking/partying. Just doing what he wants.
Periods of doubt: "What am I doing?" Most depressing: poured life into climbing, trying to be best, but no results despite effort. Everyone faces working hard without desired outcomes.
First years sponsorship from North Face: $10k/year (amazing living in van). 10-100k range for years. Increased post-Free Solo via corporate speaking.
Broke El Cap into smaller bits, worked individual steps. People see it as impossible/terrifying. Spent years thinking too big; never looked easy. Finally put real work: break into pieces, work them—feels reasonable. Model of El Cap as metaphor for any life challenge.
This is perfect because it's right here. Scouted Taipei 101 in September of this year, did the climb in January. Went to make sure it was possible before committing to the TV program and to get marketing material like photos for the trailer. Checked out all different pieces with ropes. Bottom part is low-angle slab punctuated with two little rubbins, coin things, then dragons on the corners—all overhanging. Each of eight blocks is a big overhanging segment, feels different. Up higher, balconies that are overhanging. Each segment is different, transitions between pieces are key. Climbed all pieces with rope but hadn't freed it before the live Netflix climb.
Treats it as individual challenges every step. First move off the ground: jump up to a thing and press it out. Climbing over little clouds is different. Each dragon is different. Surprising complexity. On first scout, made notes on phone: from floor 54 to 72 feels like this, climb southeast corner left arete, etc.
Famous photo of hanging with leg: that's the rings up here.
Question of endurance: how to plan energy for the top? Can't be sure, but has done 24-hour climbs and a 54-hour push in Patagonia—last 20 hours hiked without food, caught in storm. Expects climb to take 1.5-2 hours; will be tired but not exhausted, knows deeper reserves.
Much easier than El Capitan, done on live TV. El Capitan was 10-year life project in secrecy, on own terms after years of effort and failed attempts. This is in sweet spot: challenging enough, fun, engaging climbing, good training goal for months, but not absolute limit—can't do that on live TV.
Chose southeast for good morning light, looks beautiful for filming. For cutting-edge climb, would choose northwest arete in full shade for better, colder conditions.
10-second delay in case of fall or technical issues like someone unplugging equipment.
Most nervous about bamboo boxes: eight overhanging segments, relentlessly same move, very physical, get tired. Physical hardest moves: one corner up high had extreme jump, but used bolted security camera as handle—robust, giant bolts, cool. Overall, stamina challenge of repeating over hundreds of feet.
No big goodbye conversations with wife or young kids. Wife came to Taipei, was there for the end; adapted to time zone early. Went to bed and had breakfast together, she at base, saw her through window, reunited at top after 1.5 hours.
Scouted Burj Khalifa twice, once around 2013 when project almost happened. Too extreme: super slippery, holds far apart (barely span tip-to-tip), face against glass, hard to do once let alone 112 times.
Taipei 101 beauty: good holds close together, feel secure.
Rumors of $500k from Netflix. New York Times reporter asked pay; embarrassed because embarrassingly high for climbing community where getting paid to climb is huge success. Compared to boxing ($20M) or MLB contracts, embarrassingly small. Would do for free—paid $20 to observation deck via world's fastest elevator, view insane. Does that in buildings worldwide: Burj, Willis Tower (Sears).
People think building climb risks entire life, unlike boxing. But confident wouldn't fall—feels 100%, in context of life experiences.
Never worried about money, done tons of work for free like Half Dome film. Did pro climber work with friends for exposure. Led to National Geographic cover, 60 Minutes profile (2011 career inflection). Do the rad thing, it sorts out—now bonuses and work after building climb.
Don't get hung up on pay, focus on making it rad.
Same pattern: started podcast in kitchen with no pay, replica here. Do the thing well, it works out. History shows giving value precedes economics. Guy at Google explained social media business math wouldn't make money; ignored, it did. Uber CEO on Jevons paradox: efficiency leads to exponential growth, more taxis used after Uber.
Focus on being best at the thing, not monetizing. In climbing, focus on sending (doing the hard thing), everything follows.
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Realizing mortality wonderful: counters sunk cost bias, loss aversion after success narrows life, stops risks. Liberates from inconsequential worries. Don't know great-grandfather's name, life, worries—nobody cares. Even famous trend then forgotten. Building hype faded to Olympics/news cycle; back to family/climbing.
In van 10 years, wanted girlfriend. High-achievers like this profile struggle in relationships. In Free Solo doc, partner accident where she belayed, he fell; seems less affectionate, commitment-avoidant?
Less expressive, less emotionally intelligent than wife Sanni. She gave feedback wishing more emotional availability.
Oh gosh, an intimate letter out loud. This is your worst nightmare, Alex. But we all have to do scary things sometimes.
Recalls book about woman less affected by emotions; Alex said same, not burying feelings. Joked he's "dead inside," he hugged her.
As person married to you, spend time understanding you. Less affected by anxiety, fear, shame, guilt, self-doubt. But ocean of ability to truly see things: hawk-like vision on rock faces, buildings, mountain history; father's notice of daughters' desires, chores; friend's raw potential. Nothing unnoticed—strengths, weaknesses, dedication, laziness. Practical, blunt. Paying attention is love. See world clearly, appreciate it—special love form.
Last 4 years with kids: unique love story. Rushes down trail for dinner; red-eye flights home sooner; crams gym for her workout; pushes body to limit during
Alex's wife Sani wrote a letter appreciating his efforts: staying awake after long days to chat, taking extra travel days to secure donations for his foundation to save the planet, adjusting training for work to provide for family, juggling to be a great athlete, dad, and husband. "We love you as you are, Alex. Not overly emotional, but present, committed, and always seeing what others miss."
Alex calls her astute, reason he married her. Host learned a lot from it.
People show love differently. Conventional measure is verbal expression and romantic gestures, but some show it through acts of service. Alex and wife argued recently: she wants more verbal affirmation, he emphasizes actions speak louder than words. He conceded occasionally saying the right thing is needed.
Host has same argument with fiancée; she needs words. Different languages: she's speaking Spanish, he's speaking French.
Alex's early context: wished parents would divorce as their love model was unhappy. Deep commitment/intimacy problem; even calling someone "best friend" made him cringe. Affectionate words feel uncomfortable.
People marry opposites. Alex's wife is way more emotionally intelligent than his family. Host's wife same.
Build rich life like hiring: find team members with strengths you lack, fill blind spots.
Alex made slow progress in saying words, but it's great for 50-60 years of marriage. Nothing better than making progress, especially from low starting point—lifelong project.
Alex high in perseverance on personality test. Mastery requires persisting. Host, 5 years into podcasting, compares to Joe Rogan (15-17+ years). Becoming great is grinding unusual amounts—like compounding interest.
Warren Buffett example: took 40 years for first millions, 10-15 more for first billion, last 8 years ~$100B (numbers approximate, shape of graph correct).
Put enough time into something, let it compound.
Same as Alex's career graph, podcast growth: 3 years no listeners, then takeoff. Focus on doing something of value; keep going, people get on board.
Host: Never have a podcast conversation not looking forward to—unsustainable otherwise. Turned down guests with 160M followers if not excited; avoids quitting in 10 years.
Alex loves climbing in all forms, so persistence easy. For work like Planet Visionaries podcast (Rolex Perpetual Planet): interviews scientists/conservationists, leaves energized to train/learn. Examples: marine biologists, deep sea floor (.001% explored, two-thirds of planet); rich underwater world unknown.
Contrast: corporate speaking grinds him down, leaves wrecked, scrolling mindlessly.
Double down on expansive domains for mastery path—can push hard indefinitely. Climbing always expansive.
Watching Taipei 101 climb inspired kids in Taipei streets trying to climb buildings (falling after 1m). Netflix stats Taiwan: >50% of subscribers watched; singular striking national icon building.
People ask "next big thing." Focus on lots of little things; big ones happen occasionally, can't predict.
Alex has 20-year climbing goals, phone to-do lists. Seasonally moved between destinations in van, layered goals by fitness type: big walls build to bigger, hard/intense build to similar.
Realistically does ~half; weather, travel changes skip others. Looking back, hard to predict cutting-edge achievements. Keep doing things nonstop; some rise to top.
Do things you love that challenge: new, hard. Learn from them even if some never tried.
Uber CEO Dara: Young people stop making life plans—narrows serendipity/opportunity; stay broad/openminded.
Alex/Sani: Strong opinions loosely held—sure until data disproves, then pivot. Goals flexible; fork in year, turn to better opportunities.
Just keep doing cool things; works out. Don't fixate on pay/big outcomes.
Brain region anterior mid-cingulate cortex (Andrew Huberman): lights up doing unwanted things (pain, fear, effort, discipline). Decides quit or push through; grows with use—like willpower muscle.
Bigger in athletes; smaller in sedentary, weight-struggling, discomfort-avoiders.
Alex: Loves climbing but one more set always challenges (body hurts).
Alex rejects brain differences boxing him as special: middle-class suburban kid, non-athletic family (parents professors, read books, bad at sports/balls). Loves climbing enough for tremendous time/effort to get good.
Everyone's brain differs slightly; devote to what you care about.
Neuroplasticity: Decisions change brain any age. Host's friend Tom Bilyeu: at ~30, so lazy laid in bed all day (jumped up to hide from girlfriend); her dad rejected marriage proposal. Next 10 years: harder challenges, built/sold billion-dollar company. Now seems athlete/genius/motivated.
Tom learned neuroplasticity via book, realized not stuck.
Reason not at Type A 101: haven't done it (or Type A1-12).
Big goals limiting sometimes. For bed-laying friend, Type A 101 wrong—start Type A4: get out, do little thing, achieve success, build.
Alex now: raising two kids, no need for Taipei 101-level; appropriate to life phase/time.
Psychologist: People skip embarrassingly small goals as shameful. Patient agoraphobic, room piled plates: Day 1 bring Hoover in, Day 2 plug in; by Day 30 room clean, walking outside.
Better to take any step than none. Don't let perfect be enemy of good—climb Taipei 4, not wait for 101.
Quote: Greatness doesn't exist. Greatness is just good repeated.
Alex: Lots of little goals; repeat good enough, some become great unpredictably. In Yosemite seasons: 5-6 goals, one rad/makes news. Held speed records on every major Yosemite formation (some broken; some last 15 years).
Steve Jobs: Can't connect dots forward, only backward. Trust dots connect; clarity reward after action.
No "moment" deciding pro climber—just did it years; now looks like arc. Doubted: go back to college? Executive MBA after van life? Needed validation/hoops; now doesn't.
Procrastination from societal questions: plan? career? No answers, so fill gaps for parents.
Alex: "I'm living. I'm just letting it play out. We'll just see
"It's going to be a grand adventure." I hope my kids feel confident with that, just doing the best I can and practicing the things I care about and we'll see how it plays out. Either way it's going to play out with me and them and everybody else dying. You know how it's going to play out at the end. The whole space up to there is to fill it with as many things that you're proud of as you can.
It's a remarkably simple way to live in a world that's increasingly complex. Spending time in nature helps remind you of those sorts of things.
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If only one week left to live, one last climb, sufficiently prepared: Free solo the Free Triple in Yosemite – the three biggest walls: El Cap, Half Dome, and Mount Watkins (Half Dome-sized wall further up valley). Tommy Caldwell and I free climbed the triple with ropes together. Soloed the triple (all three with ropes by myself, 18-19 hours). Free soloed Half Dome and El Cap individually. No one's free soloed Watkins. Free solo all three in a day would be next generation achievement, under 24 hours. If starting over as 18-year-old pro climber with higher skill, that would be obvious next challenge.
Training regimen these days: rock climbing a lot, did hotel gym workout this morning. Hands are quite big and wide fingers from abuse, like a stonemason grinding away. Crack climbing: put fingers into crack and torque side to side, makes connective tissue bigger. Hurts, but with good technique not that painful. Depends on rock sharpness. Strengthens anterior insular cortex. Even done well, hurts fingers and toes jamming into cracks. Feels pleasant safety, comfortable like swimming, beautiful. Still crushing bones into crack.
In photo hanging by one and a half hands, grip must be world's greatest. No, only 30-40 ft off ground, sloping cliff below, bounce off to valley floor.
Seen Free Solo? Camera guy Mikey (good friend, shot Taipei climb too) was photo assistant, held gear, did whole shoot looking into wall or armpit, stressed. He's elite climber but watching free soloing is stressful.
Most scared moments mostly with ropes on. Free soloing: keep within healthy margin, practice ahead because you'll die. With rope, push into unknown hoping for protection. 2017 Antarctica expedition: extreme climbing with rope, cold, crumbling rock, keeps getting worse. Rope useless without good protection; 200 ft without gear means 400 ft fall, fatal (hit wall after).
Climbed day on, day off crazy spires, full trauma fear, then shell-shocked spooning Nutella in tent, rested, repeat. Climbed everything in range, incredible trip. Yes, get scared a lot.
Techniques for fear: deep breaths, compose, stay rational – am I in danger? Sometimes mind runs away, not actually in danger. Protection holds, gear good, carry on. Visualize falling to understand consequences, know if safe (clear ledge or hit it?). Most visualize worst case (death), but often fine with rope. Don't avoid negative outcomes; think to mitigate. Can't let it stop action when risk okay.
Choose risks you want. People party, drive buzzed, vulnerable to crime – taking unchosen risks. Climbing: choosing risks, clear-eyed, know dangerous aspects, consequences if fall. Normal people don't think through risks (e.g., sedentary = heart disease risk). Everyone dies either way. Even no risk, different risks. At least choose intentionally, mitigate as much as possible.
Framework: You're going to die either way, choose things you care about, do them well. Prepare, execute, have plan. Don't take risk willy-nilly (drunk, all money on black). Don't let fate roll dice. Make choices.
Free soloing: existential on-off switch, no margin for error, very intentional. Drinking: volume knob, more = more risk.
Grip strength meter test. Climbers have strength needed, won't break machine. Weigh 165 lbs (75 kg roughly, heaviest ever).
Alex: 49.9 kg (108 lbs). Different from climbing.
Steven: 62-63 kg both hands. Lifts dumbbells, curls, no grippy work. Did one-arm pull-ups yesterday (very hard). Steven can't do one-arms.
Weighted pull-ups? No, body weight only, weighs 211 lbs (dense, big bones, sinks in water). Grip proportional; 25% bigger, expect 25% stronger.
Closing tradition question: What to achieve outside mainline job? Two avenues: family (good dad, kids healthy well-adjusted living best lives). Han Foundation supports community solar projects worldwide.
Thesis: Energy access. Given over $13 million to 130+ projects in 30 countries, impacting 650,000 people, creating 1,200+ jobs, protected 15 million acres biodiverse forest. Secondary benefits: empowers communities (e.g., indigenous sovereignty in Ecuadorian Amazon) to protect land from illegal logging/mining.
Gives roughly third of annual income since 2012, covers foundation overhead/staffing so donations go straight to projects. Contribute at honnfoundation.org (see projects).
Foundation: attempt at something useful. Climbing fun but doesn't matter much. Foundation materially improves well-being, real impact for environment/people.
Watching you climb Taipei holds a mirror: What obstacles can you overcome? Millions have visual, etched in brains, look for their own challenges. Profound: "This is a miraculous human achievement" ... so now what can I do?
Best case for climbing: inspires intentional striving. Foundation: direct material impact (e.g., person reads after dark first time). Action louder than words. Doing both: tangible and intangible.
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