Joe Rogan Experience #2508 - Joe Eszterhas
In a Nutshell
Joe Eszterhas, 81, recounts his wild life as a journalist turned screenwriter who wrote Basic Instinct in 13 days on cocaine and Rolling Stones, sold it for $3 million, and built a career on raw, sexual, and violent stories drawn from his police beat and civil rights coverage. After surviving stage-four throat cancer, he converted to Christianity, became obsessed with the historical Jesus as a revolutionary rather than a gentle figure, and now prays before the Shroud of Turin while rejecting overly pious church portrayals. The conversation also covers his deep friendship with Hunter S. Thompson, wild encounters with Jimi Hendrix and Otis Redding, and his skepticism toward militarized ICE tactics and the precedent they set for future abuses of power.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
Joe Eszterhas brought a cane carved by the Dogon people from Mali. The cane was made by a family that has been crafting them for 100 years. Many of the Dogon were killed in the Rwanda wars. The cane is heavy, beautifully made, and has been Eszterhas's companion for many years. It appears indestructible.
The Dogon have a complex origin mythology centered on the supreme creator Amma and the cosmic journey of the amphibious water spirits known as the Nummo. According to Dogon traditions, the Nummo descended to Earth from the Sirius star system in a giant ark-like vessel containing the eight original human ancestors along with the seeds and animals needed to populate the world.
Eszterhas has a daughter who is a nature photographer working extensively in Africa and is familiar with these cultural traditions.
Zelensky and his wife have watched Basic Instinct at least 15 times. According to a recent biography, their viewing began during their courtship. She saw him with a tape and asked what it was; he said "Basic Instinct." They watched it together and it had such an impact that they continued viewing it on anniversaries.
Eszterhas notes Putin attacked first in the Ukraine conflict. He expresses sympathy for the Ukrainians, citing his Hungarian background and the 1956 Soviet suppression of the Hungarian uprising.
Eszterhas has written 18 produced films with 34 total scripts written, leaving 16 unproduced. He describes a "twisted little man" inside him who is perpetually 29 years old and handles all writing with strong sexual content. Eszterhas refers to this persona as his main invisible companion, similar to how children have imaginary friends.
Other invisible companions include Mark Twain and Jesus of Nazareth. Twain represents a cross between the twisted little man and Jesus. The twisted little man is the darker presence.
A recent deal was made for Basic Instinct 3. Eszterhas had no involvement in Basic Instinct 2, which he describes as a "piece of shit." His proposed title for the third installment is Basic Instinct Jezebel.
Eszterhas wrote Basic Instinct in 13 days in Hawaii. The script poured out of him after long subconscious development. He spent time in the sun, snorted cocaine (a habit at the time), and listened repeatedly to the Rolling Stones. He worked from notes he would jot down when waking in the middle of the night.
The two central characters came from distinct real-life experiences. Catherine Tramell was inspired by an affair Eszterhas had at age 18 with a 39-year-old faculty member's wife. She was sophisticated, smart, beautiful, and sassy. At the end of the academic year, she moved on. He later discovered she had a different student each year and her husband looked the other way.
Nick Curran was inspired by a police officer friend who had been involved in multiple shootings. Eszterhas wondered whether the officer genuinely enjoyed the shootings or had an "itchy trigger finger."
The script was originally titled Love Hurts. On his way out the door to send it to his agent, Eszterhas had a last-minute thought from the twisted little man and changed the title to Basic Instinct. The script sold at auction for a record $3 million.
Initial critical reception to Basic Instinct was harsh. Over time, critics reconsidered the film. Feminist critic Camille Paglia, who initially strongly opposed the film, later called it a post-feminist classic about women who do not have to hide their sexuality. Eszterhas has never met Paglia.
Eszterhas generally does not listen to critics. Director Richard Marquand suggested critics should be "taken out into the backyard and shot." Director Mike Figgis suggested they should be "headbutted to death." Eszterhas was sympathetic to both views.
Before writing Basic Instinct, Eszterhas spent four years on the police beat—two years in Dayton, Ohio and two years in Cleveland. He drove a company car equipped with a police radio and responded to incidents, sometimes arriving before police.
One incident that stayed with him involved a suburban Dayton shooting. He arrived before police, found the front door open, passed the body of a man who had shot himself with blood on the walls, and discovered the man's wife whom he had also shot. In the back of the house, an elderly woman—the wife's mother—was screaming and crying in Hungarian. Eszterhas, who grew up speaking fluent Hungarian, understood her.
Eszterhas covered the Glenville urban uprising in Cleveland during which six or seven policemen were shot and killed. He crouched behind a car while a bleeding, moaning officer lay approximately 10 feet away. Gunshots came from an apartment house occupied by black nationalists led by Fred Ahmed Evans.
Eszterhas knew both men from his police beat reporting. The wounded officer was Hungarian, named Elmer Joseph. Fred Ahmed Evans, who wore a dashiki, would visit Eszterhas at 2 a.m. during overnight shifts. They drank beer, smoked marijuana, and had extensive conversations.
The situation was so frightening that Eszterhas urinated in his pants while crouched behind the car.
Eszterhas covered urban uprisings in Detroit (two), Cleveland (two), and Newark (one). He was actively involved in the civil rights movement during this period.
Eszterhas and Hunter S. Thompson became friends. Both were poor kids who aspired to be novelists but chose journalism as a practical means to earn a living. Thompson wrote for the National Enquirer and Rolling Stone. Eszterhas worked at the local level.
This work placed them in an exploding American culture marked by severe racial tensions. Eszterhas began his journalism career after spending seven years in refugee camps in Austria and growing up poor in an urban environment.
As a child in Cleveland, Eszterhas lived in a poor neighborhood on the near west side. A bar was located next door. He slept on a couch in the living room overlooking the bar and watched neon lights and activity outside.
At age 12, he witnessed a man stab another man to death outside the bar. The victim fell and bled to death.
Big Shots originated from Eszterhas's son Steve's experience in Marin County attempting to form a friendship with a Black peer.
Checking Out, starring Jeff Daniels, drew from Eszterhas's own midlife crisis in his early to mid-30s when he became terrified of dying.
Betrayed, released in the mid-1980s, was inspired by right-wing militia activity and jamborees occurring in Oregon and the Northwest before the Oklahoma City bombing. Eszterhas attended one such jamboree under a false name and used the experience to create the romance between Debra Winger and Tom Berenger.
Telling Lies in America, starring Kevin Bacon and Brad Renfro, is semi-autobiographical, drawing from Eszterhas's experiences with bullying as a high school immigrant and his process of becoming an American citizen. The film was shot in front of the apartment building where he grew up in Cleveland.
An elderly man interviewed by a Cleveland television reporter during the filming said of Eszterhas: "Shit, Joe is just a fucking refugee trying to make his way in the world."
Eszterhas interviewed Otis Redding the night before Redding's fatal plane crash in Cleveland. The interview began around midnight after a show at Leo's Casino and continued until 3:30 a.m. They drank beer and Jim Beam and smoked powerful Thai marijuana. At the end, Redding asked for a hug and said, "You know what you are? You're a fucking white nigger."
Eszterhas was working at the Cleveland Plain Dealer the next day when the Associated Press wire began dinging excessively, signaling breaking news. The city editor stared at the machine, then looked at Eszterhas. Eszterhas approached and learned Redding's plane had crashed. He was likely the last person to have an extended conversation with Redding.
Eszterhas left the office, drank heavily at a bar across the street, and went home with a waitress.
He attempted to write a film about Redding titled Blaze of Glory. John Avildsen was attached to direct and Cuba Gooding Jr. was cast as Redding. The project fell apart due to financing issues and was never made.
After his late-life conversion to Christianity, Eszterhas wrote three Christian-themed scripts, none of which were produced. One priest involved in potential Christian financing stated the scripts needed "more incense" to make them more hymn-like and pious. Eszterhas responded that he does not write "fucking incense" but writes "flesh and blood."
The scripts fell between Christian and secular financing categories—too gritty for Christian financing and too religious for secular financing.
Eszterhas argued these could have been hit movies and would have been more effective at bringing people to Christianity than overly pious approaches.
He cites The Passion of the Christ as an example of a religiously themed film that succeeded because it was real rather than filled with artificial piety. He watches it each Good Friday. The film was not officially endorsed by the Catholic Church, though a Cleveland priest organized a preview screening attended by 700 people.
Eszterhas also references The Last Temptation of Christ starring Willem Dafoe, noting its historical realism.
Eszterhas describes his conception of Jesus as true man and true God, portraying him as a Jewish zealot and freedom fighter against the Roman Empire who was crucified by the Romans. Jesus primarily associated with blue-collar workers, fishermen, hookers, and tax collectors who were considered the lowest of the low in that era. This human side of Jesus is largely ignored by most films except for specific examples like The Last Temptation of Christ and another mentioned film.
The film depicted Jesus in a clearly sexual relationship with Mary Magdalene, who was portrayed as a prostitute. This portrayal sparked significant controversy, with Scorsese's house being picketed. The studio was run by Lou Werman at the time, whom Eszterhas knew from Cleveland where Werman had run a racing wire before his Hollywood career. The backlash came mostly from Catholic and Christian audiences.
Eszterhas explains that the historical truth differs significantly from the film's depiction. Mary Magdalene was actually a few years older than Jesus and a woman of means who had advised Roman builders in a city called Sarapin. She was one of the people who financed Jesus as he traveled through Galilee and Judea. Pope Gregory the Great in the sixth century identified an unnamed woman who washed Jesus's feet with her hair as Mary Magdalene, though there is no biblical connection between this woman and Mary Magdalene, and no evidence that Mary Magdalene was ever a prostitute.
Rogan notes that religion goes in peaks and waves, and there was a wave of atheism during that period when Hollywood was very non-Christian. Christian themes in films were never promoted during that era. Eszterhas agrees that it was worse then than it is now, and expresses frustration that there would be more openness to Christian films if they were authentic rather than full of incense and piety.
Eszterhas argues that Jesus has been made into a kind of Fred Rogers figure over the years, which he was not. He questions whether Jesus really said "Do not resist violence," noting that Jesus also said "If you have a cloak but not a sword, sell the cloak and buy a sword" and "I come not to make peace, but with a sword." Eszterhas believes Catholics are particularly guilty of romanticizing and cosmeticizing the figure of Jesus of Nazareth.
There is historical evidence that has been ignored in favor of fitting a particular narrative. The Gnostic gospels are full of revolutionary elements and were written 30-40 years after Jesus's death, whereas the canonical gospels accepted by churches were written 80-90 years after his death. The people named in the church gospels like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not actually the authors of those gospels, and nobody knows who wrote them.
Since his conversion to Christianity in 2001, Eszterhas has become a real student of the historical Jesus. He styles himself a devout Christian but not a devout Catholic, though he attends mass and loves it. He continues to learn more and remains astounded at what has been done to cosmeticize Jesus of Nazareth.
Rogan notes that Jesus had some of the most profound and resonating teachings even 2,000 years later. Living by the teachings of Jesus Christ provides a great framework for life and makes one a better person. Eszterhas adds that Jesus is a much better person to pick as an imagined companion than Mark Twain.
Rogan asks about the Shroud of Turin, having had a conversation about it with Mel Gibson. Eszterhas mentions a major scientific study led by John Paul II that dated the shroud to 1313 or 1320. While there is controversy about this dating, Eszterhas finds the image very moving and has several blowups of it in his house. He acknowledges the evidence points to the 1300s but finds the image compelling regardless.
The shroud is not a dye and researchers are not exactly sure what caused the image to appear. The accurate representation is only visible when seen as a negative, which is strange for a piece of art created in the 1300s, centuries before photography. Proponents of its authenticity believe it was created by an intense burst of energy during Jesus's resurrection. Eszterhas admits he is agnostic on whether it is real but finds the mystery fascinating.
Eszterhas states he is moved when he looks at the image and prays before it, so for him it is real even if it may not be for others. Rogan agrees that at the very least it is an insanely compelling piece of artwork. Unlike other great art like Michelangelo's work with visible brush strokes and chisel marks, the shroud's creation method cannot be explained or recreated.
Various theories have been proposed but none fully explain the shroud's properties. Chemical theories involving body heat, sweat, or vapors fail to reproduce the sharp, non-blurry details. Heat or scorch theories do not match the shallow, non-burn discoloration. Human-made image theories involving painting or rubbing from bas-relief have not found pigments in the amounts or patterns that would explain the image. Primitive photography theories suggest a medieval camera using light-sensitive silver salts could have projected a body or statue, though this remains historically speculative.
Some researchers argue that a brief intense burst of ultraviolet or similar radiation from the body could have discolored only the top fibers, producing a non-contact image. Proponents sometimes link this to Jesus's resurrection. However, the required radiation of billions of watts without burning the cloth is far beyond anything observed in nature, making this a speculative idea rather than an established physical mechanism.
Carbon dating occurred in 1988, and supporters of an earlier date argue that the sample came from an anomalous or contaminated area, possibly a rewoven or heavily handled corner reflecting medieval repairs rather than the original cloth. Alternative dating methods using X-ray or crystallographic aging of linen fibers have produced dates compatible with the first century. Pollen and dust analysis reports grains and mineral dust consistent with the first century Middle East rather than only medieval Europe.
John Paul II, whom Eszterhas admired, really believed in the shroud and visited it in Turin several times. He said he was moved by it and launched a big Vatican investigation but never stated agreement with the investigation's findings. The issue seemed to drop without further action.
The earliest undisputed record appears in the 1350s in Lirey, a village in France, where knight Geoffrey de Charny displayed a cloth claimed to be Jesus's burial shroud. How he obtained it and where it was between the first century and the fourteenth century remains unknown. Later theories trace it speculatively through Edessa and Constantinople.
The shroud is displayed in the Chapel of the Holy Shroud in Turin. It shows both sides of the body, apparently folded over. There are small triangle markings that may be burn marks. The shroud is longer than expected, covering the length of Jesus's body.
Eszterhas agrees with Rogan that one should not dismiss the possibility that the shroud is real. In his mind it is real, and he prays to it. He tries not to worry about whether it is objectively real because he is moved by it, and that is good enough for him.
Eszterhas grew up Catholic and was an altar boy. He knew one really great priest who helped him with his life. He became a lapsed Catholic, and while hugely successful as a screenwriter in Malibu, something was missing in his life despite the success. He was being interviewed constantly and having mail stolen from his mailbox.
Shortly after moving back to Cleveland from Malibu, Eszterhas was diagnosed with stage four throat cancer. Cleveland Clinic surgeon Marshall Strome performed a surgery never before done in this country, previously done in Switzerland, where they took a muscle from the left side of his neck and attached it to his larynx. The surgery was dicey but spectacularly successful, and Eszterhas is now 81.
During his terrifying experience with cancer, Eszterhas ran across a Jesus reading, partly influenced by his wife Naomi who grew up Catholic with a very strong faith. He went to church a couple of times and loved the mass. During his three-year recovery, there was a time when he could not speak, then spoke like Brando, then squeaked. He jogged, walked, and did everything physically possible to help his recovery.
Eszterhas felt that the reason he was able to beat stage four cancer had to do with his prayer life. He started reading voraciously about Jesus of Nazareth, the apostles, ancient Jewish history, and Catholic history. He began going regularly to church with Naomi, and later with their boys as well.
Over time, Eszterhas developed issues with the Catholic Church including its history of anti-Semitism, its sexism in not allowing women to be priests, and the concept of the pope making infallible decisions. He shut most of that off and sometimes felt like he was becoming a kind of agnostic Catholic. However, his Christianity did not suffer, and his faith in Christ remained unflagged. He still prays specifically to Jesus.
Eszterhas respected Martin Luther's revolution because Luther revolted against the same kinds of issues. The mass continues to hold him, and he finds worship terrific and believes in it. The kind of worship that really moves him is black spiritual worship, the full-scale emotional "I give myself to you Jesus" kind of worship.
Eszterhas finds black Baptist worship fun, with people throwing up their arms and saying "Here I am, take me, Lord." He believes they look like they are having way more fun. He has been fortunate to have black friends and share in black culture throughout his life.
Eszterhas was involved in the civil rights movement and had a shotgun stuck in his belly by a deputy who had been indicted for killings and told him to get the hell out of the county. He had the good fortune to have lunch with Reverend Martin Luther King.
Eszterhas met King during an unheralded appearance in town due to the death of a minister in a protest. King was heading back to the airport and could not find his ride. Eszterhas offered to drive him, and on the way King asked if he was hungry. They stopped for lunch, and what amazed Eszterhas was that King was more interested in hearing about his refugee camp experiences and how they worked than he was in talking about the civil rights movement.
Joe Eszterhas described meeting a Black Panther leader in the late 1960s or early 1970s who was very moving and powerful. He drove the man to the airport and found him absolutely magnetic. During his college years, Eszterhas had a relationship with a young Black woman that brought him closer to Black culture. As a refugee ethnic kid, he sought out those cultural lessons.
While at Rolling Stone from 1971 to 1976, Huey Newton would sometimes visit the office. Eszterhas partly suspected the visits were because Rolling Stone had some of the most beautiful women in the world working there. When it got really hot, they would go topless because the office had air conditioning. This period coincided with the cultural revolution, women's revolution, and sexual revolution exploding simultaneously. Eszterhas described being in the vortex of all of that.
The birth control pill was approved by the FDA and introduced to the market in 1960. Joe Rogan noted that before the pill, women faced pregnancy risk with every sexual encounter. Eszterhas mentioned learning about various health concerns associated with long-term pill use, including potential impacts on mate selection and other hormonal effects. Rogan shared a story about a friend's 17-year-old daughter who died from blood clots while on the pill and smoking cigarettes. Smoking while taking oral contraceptives containing estrogen significantly increases the risk of heart attacks, strokes, and blood clots, particularly for women over 35.
Eszterhas mentioned that Joan had more fun at Rolling Stone than at any other time in his life. Rogan recalled having Yan Winner on the podcast, noting that Winner kept looking at his watch. Eszterhas explained that Winner in 2024 or 2025 was different from the Yan Winner of 1975 who was editor when Hunter Thompson was writing crazy stories.
Eszterhas is a big Hunter Thompson fan and wanted to discuss him specifically. Thompson was the cause of Eszterhas's huge success as a screenwriter. While working as a reporter at the Plain Dealer, Eszterhas covered a Hell's Angels shootout at a bar called Bartois Cafe in Cleveland. He wrote a story that the Associated Press picked up and put on their national wire. Shortly afterward, Thompson sent him a note saying, "Big [expletive] now there are two of us who know how to write about Hell's Angels. That really pisses me off. All the best on Dressman."
Eszterhas was as excited about receiving that note from Thompson as his two sons were to meet Joe Rogan. Time passed, and he got a call from Rolling Stone. He had already done a couple of freelance pieces for them, including one on Kent State one year afterward. The managing editor Paul Scandan, who came from the Wall Street Journal and wanted to take on the New York Times for Rolling Stone, wanted Eszterhas to do a freelance piece on corrupt narcotics agents.
When Eszterhas arrived at Rolling Stone, he discovered that Thompson had been pushing them to hire him because of the Hell's Angels piece. Thompson kept saying Eszterhas was a good guy. While at Rolling Stone, Eszterhas wrote a book called Charlie Simpson's Apocalypse that Thompson loved. By then they knew each other and were friends who enjoyed each other's company.
Thompson got Eszterhas connected with the top literary agent in the country and helped secure Random House as publisher. Thompson also provided a blurb when the book came out. The book became a finalist for the National Book Award, one of four finalists. Someone at United Artists read the book among the finalists, called Eszterhas out of the blue, and said he had cinematic talent and asked if he had thought about writing a script. They hired him to write F.I.S.T., and all of his subsequent success in screenplays and cinema was thanks to Thompson.
Eszterhas and Thompson's friendship took place in San Francisco when Thompson would come to town from Woody Creek. They ran together, enjoyed each other's company, and drank together. On occasion they would go to San Francisco's stripper bar area around Farrell Street. Thompson would take acid before every trip down there. Eszterhas would snort some lines instead. One time they waited about an hour at a club, and Thompson suddenly got up, hurled his arms in the air and said, "Where's the [expletive] We want pussy."
Thompson was larger than life and colorful, but Eszterhas discovered he was also very well read. He had a sensitive and un-hippie-like side that he didn't share with many people. Eszterhas saw this most clearly when Thompson came to dinner at their small apartment in Nevada. Eszterhas was married at the time to a former reporter at the Plain Dealer who was very straight and rejected the whole hippie thing. She worked for a small suburban paper in California. Thompson had never met her but said he would like to meet her.
Eszterhas's wife cooked Hungarian chicken paprikash, Hungary's most famous meal. Thompson sat with them and Eszterhas discovered that the boy from Kentucky was there underneath all the firepower and larger-than-life behavior. Thompson was sensitive and quiet, and he and Eszterhas's wife got along like gangbusters. On the ride back to town after dinner, Thompson berated Eszterhas for having an affair with what he called "this hippie chick," saying Eszterhas had a wonderful wife and shouldn't be fooling around.
If they had breakfast, it was at 4 in the afternoon. Thompson would order four margaritas, six beers, and maybe toast with scrambled eggs. Eszterhas said Thompson had more tolerance than anyone he had ever seen. Eszterhas's own tolerance for booze in those days was also very high, but he had never seen anybody quite like Thompson. Thompson had a great sense of humor.
Many years later, Thompson wanted Eszterhas to write the screenplay for Rum Diary. Eszterhas hadn't seen Thompson in a long time and had just met Naomi, to whom he has now been married 32 years. Thompson wanted Eszterhas to come to Aspen to talk about it. Eszterhas called someone and asked what kind of shape Thompson was in because he was head over heels in love with Naomi. The person paused and said Thompson was good, then paused again and mentioned that the Stones were in Denver and Mick and Keith decided to come visit him between gigs.
Mick and Keith hired a driver and drove up to Woody Creek. They had a terrific time but after three or four hours said they had to go because they had a gig that night. Thompson got upset and said they just got here. They explained they had been there three or four hours. Thompson continued to be upset, left the house, and suddenly they heard gunshots. He had gone out and shot the tires out on the Stones' car. Eszterhas never took Naomi there because he was too frightened.
This incident was around 1994 or 1995. Thompson had been going hard for 30 years by that point. The end for him was very sad. According to both Ralph Steadman and Thompson's former wife Sandy, it wasn't the drugs that caused the sadness but the booze. His body began aging and he needed a wheelchair. He could hardly walk. Sandy drove him in the wheelchair. At one point in New Orleans while visiting Sean Penn on a film, Thompson actually fell out of the wheelchair in the middle of traffic and Sandy couldn't pick him up, so they had to get help with cars going by. He also broke a leg while visiting Hawaii at Pahala.
In his suicide note, which Eszterhas thought was the most gut-wrenching but also terrific suicide note, Thompson wrote that it was no fun anymore. The fun was gone. Nothing was fun. No football, no this, no that. No fun. Rogan noted that when the body goes, it's hard to have fun, and that's the problem with booze. Eszterhas agreed that the problem with many drugs, but particularly booze, is that you're breaking down your body over and over again. Thompson was doing it every day.
There is a famous piece by a reporter who visited Thompson and documented his drug and alcohol use throughout the day, starting at 6:00 in the morning in the hot tub with champagne. Eszterhas mentioned a memoir of Thompson that Beardy Man turned into an EDM song. Rogan confirmed it was Beardy Man who put it to music and said it's hilarious. Eszterhas called it an amazing but tragic story in a lot of ways.
In his prime, Thompson's writing was in many ways the narration of an era and was genius. There was something called the new journalism that Eszterhas practiced along with people like A.J. Liebling, David Halberstam, and Larry L. King. Thompson took that and created an entirely new genre. The Gonzo journalism thing was his, and it was a kind of humor that just knocked you down. It was totally revolutionary. Tom Wolfe, one of the founders of the new journalism, said Thompson was today's version of Mark Twain in terms of what he was able to accomplish.
Two books especially stood out: Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and the 1972 campaign book, which Eszterhas considers the best political commentary including all of Teddy White's books. Rogan agreed it was fantastic. Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 was remarkable because Thompson had the freedom to go in and follow the campaign for the entire time and then write a book about it, unlike the shoe-tie wearing reporters who were held to different standards.
The regular reporters were doing the boring thing of following a bunch of politicians telling them how they were going to change the country when the reporters knew they weren't really going to do it because they had been doing it for 20 years. Then along came Thompson saying "Let's do acid. Come on, pussies," drinking and saying wild things and writing wild things, and he didn't have to be held to the same standards because he knew it didn't matter if they never had him back again.
Eszterhas is sorry that Thompson wasn't around during Trump's time because that could have been wild and hilarious. There is also a part of Eszterhas that thinks Thompson would have liked Trump, which is heresy to liberals who think Thompson would have absolutely hated him. Eszterhas is not certain of that and thinks that in terms of his style, Thompson would have liked things about Trump. Rogan suggested Thompson would have liked the fact that Trump is this wild character that has never existed in all of presidential politics before.
Rogan mentioned what Trump did with Netanyahu, having a fit and saying Netanyahu was crazy and that he would have been in jail except for Trump saving his ass. No other president has ever spoken like that, not only publicly but to world leaders. Eszterhas said he is proud of being a deplorable. He grew up among poor people and blue-collar people in Cleveland, and Trump is the first president who didn't talk down but talked directly to them. For good or for bad, Trump is who he is, which is a very odd person to be.
Eszterhas has a lot of questions in certain areas, including the ICE situation, which bothers him, and the whole thing with the ballroom. Rogan said the ballroom doesn't bother him that much because it's trivial construction, but the ICE stuff does. What bothers Rogan is opening the door for militarized police on city streets. He understands the perspective that illegal immigrants who are criminals need to be removed, but he sees it as a very slippery slope when giving people who are trained for only seven weeks, much less time than police officers or military, a militarized police force with no identification on the streets.
Rogan argued that a precedent set for a cause you support could easily be used for a cause you do not support. That militarized police force could go door to door confiscating guns, and a different ruler could use this precedent in a very damaging way for a free society. Eszterhas agreed. He mentioned the woman who was killed in Minnesota and the guy the week afterward who was also shot by ICE, and calling them domestic terrorists is an abomination.
Rogan noted that Trump got rid of the previous ICE leadership and Tom Homan replaced them. The previous guy had a very odd way of dressing reminiscent of Nazi Germany, wearing a very weird coat that people online pointed out was a strange wardrobe choice for someone accused of fascism. Eszterhas agreed it was kind of crazy.
The other problem with the ICE situation is not the fault of the ICE people or this administration. Many of these people were encouraged to come here. Rogan described how if you're living in Guatemala in terrible third-world poverty and you're told they'll help you get across the border, transport you into America, put you in cities, and you can get on public assistance or social security if you have a bad back, with the Red Cross giving you maps and people showing you how to do it, and then two years later you're being chased down by masked ICE workers, it's very inconsistent. Rogan feels for those people who were told there was going to be a pathway to citizenship.
Eszterhas said he personifies the American dream. His parents came here as immigrants. When they lived on Lorain Avenue in Cleveland, there was a Hungarian poet, a mad poet named Imre, who would go up and down Lorain Avenue screaming in Hungarian "Hol van?" which means "Where is it? Where is the gold?" Eszterhas came as a kid who couldn't speak the language and knew no one. He got into serious juvenile trouble but got out of that. He was a total autodidact who did a lot of reading. He went to college, did well, won a big award as a senior, and kept working. He got a terrific amount of help from Americans, beginning with a bus driver named Henry Jackson, a Black man who had been adopted by Hungarian parents and spoke Hungarian.
Eszterhas found a great deal of help from people in college and couldn't have done what he achieved without the help of other people and other Americans. To top everything off, Hollywood and 18 films. He thinks that is the personification of the American dream, and many of the immigrants who come here are looking for the same dream. Many of them are saying what Imre said on Lorain Avenue: "Hol van? Hol van? Where is it?"
Part of the reason the stuff in Minneapolis breaks Eszterhas's heart is that these Latino people are his cousins and brothers in terms of not the killers and not the gang members, but the people who are gardeners and who work in stores trying to make a buck and have kids and survive. Rogan noted that part of the ICE story is that a lot of these officers are Latino, including the two guys that shot Alex Prey. Those two guys were Latino. They took these jobs because they give you a $50,000 signing bonus to join ICE, which is significant for someone in debt or struggling.
Discussion turns to concerns about masked, militarized police during protests. The participants note that this sets a dangerous precedent, even when the stated goal is removing criminals. They reference the use of National Guard and militarized forces during COVID lockdowns in certain cities. The fear is that people accept these measures for immediate results without realizing they could become normalized. Some of the people detained turned out to be American citizens, with hundreds affected.
Joe Eszterhas shares his experience covering the Kent State massacre. He identifies the rhetoric from Governor James Rhodes and National Guard head Sylvester Del Corso as the main factor that created the atmosphere leading to the shooting. They observe that society goes through cycles of learning and then repeating mistakes, particularly around racial tensions and political unrest.
"Politicians are like diapers, and they should be changed often and for the same reason." — Mark Twain
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes." — Mark Twain
Eszterhas discusses Mark Twain's lesser-known history as an early stand-up performer. Twain began with lecture tours across the West before writing his famous books. After going bankrupt from bad investments later in life, he returned to stand-up with a world tour. Twain was described as a "poet of the profane" for his male-audience performances and wrote a book celebrating masturbation. His provocative, envelope-pushing material was largely hidden behind his reputation as the author of Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer.
Lesser-known works mentioned include Letters from the Earth (from the voice of the devil), The Mysterious Stranger (a dark take on Jesus returning), and Dwayne Erupt (published in the 1930s but not republished). Eszterhas is considering writing a fictional piece about Twain as a stand-up pushing boundaries.
The cultural context problem is acknowledged — similar to the Dustin Hoffman film Lenny about Lenny Bruce, where the outrageousness of the original material no longer translates because society has changed so dramatically. Stand-up comedy functions as a window into the behavior and perceptions of its time, as do old films.
Eszterhas mentions unpublished material from Twain held in University of California archives and Twain's notebooks that remain largely unpublished and may still be shocking.
Eszterhas reveals that Sam Kinison dedicated one of his final CDs, Leader of the Band, to him. The dedication appears in larger letters than the others after thanking Sly and Sean Penn, reading: "And very special thanks to Joe Eszterhas writing his letter to Michael Ovitz."
Eszterhas explains the backstory: He was leaving the Creative Artists Agency (CAA) because his mentor and friend Guy McElwaine was leaving. When he informed Michael Ovitz (then head of CAA), Ovitz threatened him, saying his "foot soldiers who go up and down Wilshire Boulevard" would "put you under the ground." After thinking about it for weeks, Eszterhas wrote Ovitz a letter saying "Fuck you," stating he was leaving to return to the person who started him in the business. The incident became a major public controversy with headlines.
Producer Bernie Brillstein later wrote in a memoir that Ovitz had used the exact same threat against him. The controversy ultimately damaged Ovitz's reputation and contributed to his departure from the business.
Eszterhas and Rogan agree Kinison was one of the greats and, for a two-to-three-year period, the most profound and revolutionary stand-up comic ever. Rogan recounts first learning about Kinison at age 19 while working at the Boston Athletic Club in South Boston. A female coworker reenacted Kinison's bit about homosexual necrophiliacs in the parking lot, performing the line: "Oh, oh, life keeps fucking you in the ass even after you're dead. It never ends. It never ends."
Rogan had previously thought stand-up was only the observational style seen on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. Kinison's HBO special and Richard Pryor's Live on the Sunset Strip were the only ways to see this wilder style of comedy at the time. Kinison had been a preacher before becoming a comedian and brought a completely different energy that changed comedy.
Rogan owns two signed copies of Kinison's first album (Louder Than Hell), though the signatures differ and their authenticity is uncertain. They discuss Kinison's final conversation with Jesus as he was dying, which is captured on recording.
Eszterhas recounts his first Rolling Stone story about corrupt narcotics agents in California, which led to the head of the state's narcotics agency resigning. As a result, dealers sent him plastic baggies of cocaine at the magazine. Whenever Hunter S. Thompson was visiting, Eszterhas would give him the bags, and Thompson would react with amazement.
They note that this was when cocaine was still pure, before fentanyl contamination. Eszterhas tried acid once and found it terrifying. He states that Showgirls was clearly written under the influence of cocaine and remains one of the great cocaine movies. Quentin Tarantino also loved the film.
Showgirls starred Elizabeth Berkley, previously known as the wholesome character from Saved by the Bell, who suddenly appeared half-naked as a showgirl having an affair with a man who left his wife.
Rogan confirms he named the podcast after the Jimi Hendrix Experience and listened to "Voodoo Child" and "Whole Lotta Love" as part of his pre-show soundtrack driving over Laurel Canyon to the Comedy Store.
Eszterhas shares his 1968 interview with Hendrix in Cleveland. As a Plain Dealer reporter wearing a tie and sport coat, he interviewed Hendrix at the Cleveland Hotel at 9:30 a.m. They smoked marijuana until 11:30, then got hungry. Hendrix had a limousine waiting, so they went to the Balaton, a Hungarian restaurant on Buckeye Road in Cleveland's Hungarian community. Eszterhas ordered chicken paprikash for Hendrix, who ended up eating three orders. They drank four bottles of wine. Old Hungarian ladies approached for autographs, and Hendrix was gracious. As they left, Hendrix raised his fist and said "Hungry, hungry."
Rogan recounts Ron White's story of seeing Hendrix open for The Monkees when Hendrix was still emerging. The audience of kids expecting the clean-cut Monkees was terrified by Hendrix's guitar playing.
Eszterhas and Ben Myron attempted to develop a Hendrix biopic but discovered the rights were too tangled among relatives, which is why no Hendrix movie has been made despite the phenomenal potential.
There is a recording of the March 26, 1968 Cleveland concert that Eszterhas covered. A documentary was made with André 3000 portraying Hendrix, though music rights issues limited its use of Hendrix's songs.
Eszterhas was known as "the grim reaper" at the Plain Dealer because he interviewed Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, and Otis Redding, all of whom died young. He also did a feature on José Feliciano.
People approached Joe Eszterhas at the Blind Deal asking why he wanted Jose to die. Eszterhas noted it was unfortunate that many talented individuals died at age 27, including Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Amy Winehouse.
Eszterhas expressed gratitude for still being alive at 81 despite past excesses. He started smoking at 13 and quit at 60. He had stage four cancer and underwent Marshall Storm surgery which saved him. He drank heavily most of his life until age 70 when he stopped.
His hard-headed Italian-Polish wife Naomi confronted him after he was falling down and taking 12 pills, telling him enough was enough. Shortly after exchanging wedding vows, she whispered that if he cheated on her, she would hunt him down and kill him. Eszterhas said he listened to her.
At 67 and mother of four, Naomi wrote her first novel called Dark Church, a Gothic thriller set in Dracula's Transylvania. Eszterhas promised to plug the book during the interview. Joe Rogan praised the decision to pursue something long desired at that age.
Eszterhas referenced writer Graham Greene who died in his late 70s. Greene said people reach a point where they see the fence but cannot see over it. The closer they get, the more curious they become about what's on the other side. Some people become too curious and jump over, like Hunter S. Thompson. Eszterhas said he is approaching the fence but not jumping.
He emphasized that he has lived a terrific life and that such opportunities only exist in America.
Eszterhas admired Hunter S. Thompson's "no more fun" suicide note. Thompson's life at the end was not fun. Eszterhas referenced Mark Twain's quote that the orgasm is God's own payback for all the suffering that He overlooks in the world.
Writers reshape how people view things. Hunter S. Thompson was the voice of his generation in the 1960s and 1970s—an intelligent outsider who articulated the era's experiences. Works like Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and "The Kentucky Derby Is Decadent and Depraved" remain powerful encapsulations. Rogan noted the lack of similar singular writing voices today amid podcasters, YouTubers, and TikTok creators.
Eszterhas and Hunter S. Thompson discussed Ernest Hemingway frequently due to their backgrounds. Thompson's decision to end his life was likely thought out years earlier and inspired by Hemingway's example. Both men drank to excess.
As a boy wanting to be a novelist, Eszterhas viewed Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and William Faulkner as the holy trinity. All three died of alcoholism-related causes: Hemingway shot himself, Fitzgerald had a heart attack while working as a Hollywood screenwriter, and Faulkner fell off a horse while drunk in his early 70s.
Eszterhas explained that writing places a person in an imaginary world that cannot be turned off. Alcohol silences these voices, allowing normal familial and daily obligations. He described waking in the middle of the night to take notes on character dialogue, showing how persistent the creative process remains. Alcohol allowed him to temporarily free himself from his own creations.
Eszterhas finds pleasure in knowing his screenplays will make people's lives more pleasant for at least two hours by taking them out of their own existences. Rogan agreed that entertainment is not trivial and shapes perceptions of the world. Eszterhas contrasted this with his daughter-in-law, a doctor who literally saves lives after recently earning her medical degree.
Eszterhas shared a story about his daughter-in-law working in a Texas hospital. A large man was yelling and screaming. When asked what was wrong, he shouted that he wanted Brad Pitt. When questioned further, he said he wanted to have sex with Brad Pitt. This illustrated Hollywood's powerful cultural effect.
Eszterhas stated he does not want his work to inspire anyone to start a war or produce extreme reactions like the Brad Pitt incident, but he does want people to enjoy it.
Rogan suggested alcohol might release inhibitions and allow tapping into creative voices. Eszterhas said this was never his problem. He described retreating to a quiet room to make things up that people will enjoy. He sometimes played music nonstop while writing certain scripts, listening heavily to Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan.
Eszterhas clarified that cocaine was recreational and enjoyable, including for sex, but never fueled his writing. Nicotine did fuel his writing.
Eszterhas drank so much coffee that he once thought he was having a heart attack and called an ambulance. Stuck in traffic during construction, he jumped out and confronted a construction worker named Brinker, yelling that he was dying and needed the road cleared. The incident was caused by caffeine. He later became allergic to coffee and had to stop drinking it entirely.
After quitting coffee, Eszterhas ordered what he thought was decaf espresso in New York but received regular espresso and stayed awake for two and a half days. He confirmed nicotine fueled his writing. He smoked two packs a day throughout his career, progressing from Bidis and Marlboros to Gauloises, occasionally smoking cigars and pipes.
Stephen King noted that quitting smoking was more difficult than quitting alcohol or cocaine and affected his writing. After his cancer surgery, an army surgeon warned Eszterhas that smoking or drinking would kill him. He initially switched from cognac to white wine, which also got out of hand until Naomi intervened.
Eszterhas's complete sobriety aligned with his conversion to Christianity. He needed the help of Jesus of Nazareth to quit his addictions and prayed extensively. He continues to believe in prayer and group worship, describing a special inspirational feeling when people gather together.
Rogan compared the feeling in church to attending a concert where the shared energy creates something profound. Eszterhas agreed people are tribal and meant to be together. When worship works well, he feels transported to a different level. Rogan noted the church parking lot as the best place on earth because everyone is kind and lets others go first, demonstrating that Jesus's teachings work when followed.
People are cynical and afraid of manipulation and cults. Eszterhas said he is not afraid but sometimes skeptical. He can feel when someone speaking about spiritual matters is genuine versus inauthentic. Both he and Rogan described having a "bullshit detector" that helps identify genuine versus manipulative individuals.
Eszterhas told Rogan it had been an honor. He said Rogan redefined the interview into a special conversation between two people who like each other, talk for hours, become inspired, and come out liking each other more. Rogan thanked Eszterhas for being on the show and expressed that it was an honor to meet him and have the conversation.
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