Why Kids Can Learn 10x Faster Than We Think — Niels Hoven of Mentava (Tim Coaching Session)
In a Nutshell
Mentava is software that lets preschoolers teach themselves to read at their own pace, reaching second-grade level in 3-6 months through optimized phonics curriculum and video-game-style motivation design. The core insight is that when kids can accelerate without waiting for their age group, an entire school day's worth of learning compresses into 15-30 minutes daily. The business charges $500/month, targets first-generation immigrant parents who prioritize education, and positions itself as relief from nagging rather than just faster learning.
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
If you allow kids to learn at their own pace, you can pack the entire school day into a very small amount of time. When his own son was in third grade after a lot of back and forth, permission was finally granted from one teacher for independent study during math class using an app. The son finished eighth grade math while still in third grade. This demonstrates the pace of what kids are allowed to do.
Mentava is software designed to let kids learn as fast as they're capable of learning instead of just at the pace assigned to their age. The first product is early literacy software designed for preschoolers as young as two or three to get to a second grade reading level.
A second grade reading level means being able to read easy reader books on your own, such as Green Eggs and Ham, Hop on Pop, and the Elephant and Piggy series. This represents the conscious competence level of being able to read.
Two-year-old twins were reading Hop on Pop and Green Eggs and Ham before their third birthday. The parents were projecting the game onto a large screen and the twins were playing and competing with each other to read.
A three-year-old learned to read in about three months. A kindergartener who was behind used the software to catch up, and his mother reported that the teacher had never seen a kid catch up so fast. The child previously told his mother about a smart classmate who could read, and later came back to say he could read like that classmate now.
One parent reported more progress in one week with their daughter than in roughly six months of kindergarten.
Mentava started during the pandemic when both parents had full-time jobs and were locked down in a 600 square foot one-bedroom apartment with three little kids. The kids wanted to learn to read and do math, but there was no time to teach them every step of the way. The goal was for kids to be able to teach themselves, which is both practical and an important life skill.
Existing software was not designed for three and four-year-olds to learn on their own. The background in games and tutorial design made this a solvable design problem.
The key advantages are an extremely optimized curriculum and strong motivation design. Reading and math are solved problems - teaching kids letter sounds and then how to blend them together works. The curriculum takes phonics, optimizes it, and creates excellent UX that works for two, three, and four-year-olds.
The motivation design draws from video games and casino slot machine principles. The metaphor for motivation is getting someone to jump through a hoop - either increase the reward on the other side or lower the hoop. The goal is to lower the hoop for learning phonics sounds and blending through excellent UX design, while providing rewards that celebrate intrinsic motivation rather than replacing it with extrinsic rewards.
The bio describes the founder as CEO of Mentava, a company building software to support fast learners. High achieving kids are dramatically underserved by today's education system. The original phrasing about raising the floor while removing the ceiling was flagged as problematic positioning.
Prior to Mentava, the founder worked at Cloudflare, ClassDojo, and Pocket Gems, where he ran the highest grossing mobile game in the world in 2011.
The core problem is that schools actively slow down fast learners. The founder's own son was not permitted to learn algebra. Early acceleration means less pressure later. The solution allows kids to accelerate without requiring parents to become teachers or taskmasters.
The product receives strong customer feedback and referrals, but marketing remains a challenge. The problem many parents don't realize exists is that their kids could be doing much more and will be held back when they get to elementary school. By the time parents recognize their kids are bored and not achieving potential, the biggest opportunities to intervene have passed.
Differentiation is nuanced and consists of thousands of small decisions that customers cannot evaluate directly. Many immediate customers are immigrants shocked at how much worse the US education system is compared to what they experienced, or parents who already care about motivation and recognize their kids are capable of more.
Many Montessori parents use the software because they love the values but find Montessori schools don't focus on academics, with kids refusing to provide phonics instruction.
A key concern is balancing intellectual development with social development. Parents want their kids to be socially intelligent and remain in school with other kids rather than being taught by private tutors. The question is what form school takes if kids are given a three or four-year head start - whether they would be sitting and staring at the clock waiting for school to end.
A big part of the reason Mentava was designed the way it was stems from Niels Hoven's experience in third grade. His school only went up to third grade, so when he was ahead in math during second grade, he would go to the third grade class for math and return to his classroom. In third grade, there was no higher classroom available, so he began independent study during math class, studying from a math book at the back of the room for the hour of math class, then rejoining his class for the rest of the day.
This independent study arrangement continued for four years until seventh grade when he rejoined classes for pre-calculus, followed by taking calculus in eighth grade. The four years of self-paced learning meant no homework and the ability to progress as quickly as desired. This experience also developed the skill of self-teaching that he relies on today.
Niels believes in public schools and wants his children to attend them, but supports allowing kids to learn at their own pace. The ideal model involves kids attending public school with neighborhood peers, then spending about an hour daily on Mentava during math class at their own pace, before rejoining same-age peers for the remainder of the day.
Alpha School uses adaptive software on tablets for a portion of the day. The goal is developing something that scales and can be used immediately, rather than requiring families to relocate to cities with Alpha School availability, which is expensive and has limited capacity. Alpha School's core insight aligns with Mentava's: allowing kids to learn at their own pace enables compressing the entire school day into a very small amount of time.
Niels shares that his own son, in third grade with permission from one teacher, completed eighth grade math through independent study via an app during the school day, demonstrating the pace at which capable kids can progress when allowed.
A prospective customer example involves Jake Bcraft of Strand Therapeutics, who was encouraged to try Mentava. After the 14-day trial, Jake provided feedback about his son (referred to as Rob for privacy). Rob was two years and two months old and had taught himself the alphabet at 17 months. However, there was a sequencing milestone that Rob had likely not fully reached. The curriculum made sequencing tests more difficult than necessary and pushed Rob to easier curriculum without an override option.
The family ended up pausing at the end of the trial with plans to restart in three months. Most significantly, Rob continued pointing to the iPad and requesting to play the letter game, indicating Mentava had appeal for him despite not completing the full trial.
The 14-day free trial exists because Mentava recognizes they are not effective at explaining what differentiates their software, so they prefer customers experience it directly. Within 14 days, customers can determine if it's a good fit for their family. A common issue occurs when kids are developmentally ready to learn letters and letter sounds but not ready to blend sounds together for reading.
The developmental milestone involves understanding left-to-right reading order. The test presents emojis showing "dog fish" and "fish dog," explaining which is which, then asking kids to identify them. Older kids understand directionality immediately, while younger kids whose brains haven't connected these neurons find it nearly impossible. Kids who cannot pass this test are directed to letter sounds curriculum, with parents informed about the developmental readiness issue and encouraged to try again in three to six months.
There is currently zero proactive outreach to families whose trials failed the sequencing milestone. Parents are told to try again in three months when the child doesn't pass the hurdle, but no follow-up contact occurs.
Pilot programs are running with schools currently without charging them. The philosophy is that using Mentava as a private tutor for individual acceleration should be expensive, but schools using it as a teacher support tool should be cheap or free. Self-serve signups for teachers to get Mentava for their classrooms recently went live or are about to launch.
The main barrier to scaling teacher access is fraud prevention, as nothing prevents parents from claiming to be teachers to access the free version. This concern has prevented aggressive promotion of the teacher program.
Mentava costs $500 per month. Some customers report letting go of private tutors because the software replaced them effectively, with some suggesting the company should charge more. A scholarship program offers $100 monthly pricing for families who complete the free trial, love the product, but cannot afford full price, in exchange for weekly videos of their child using Mentava that can be used for social media and marketing with signed releases.
An idea discussed involves placing an abbreviated readiness check directly on the website as a two-minute quiz rather than requiring signup first. This would serve as both an email capture tool and immediate service for time-pressed parents. The quiz could accomplish data capture including email verification while filtering families whose children aren't developmentally ready.
The value proposition should emphasize selling parents relief rather than just children's speed. The positioning includes not having to be the teacher, with the $500 monthly cost anchored against tutor pricing. Even if equally effective as a tutor, Mentava teaches children to fish rather than giving them a fish by developing self-motivated, self-directed learners.
Parents who can afford $500 monthly often see immediate value if they have multiple children and cannot serve as teacher for each child. The product targets parents who want their children to learn independently rather than those who specifically want to be the teacher themselves.
Suggested daily usage is 15 to 30 minutes depending on age. The value proposition includes creating self-directed learners who become excited about learning, with the time investment being minimal relative to waking hours spent with children.
The two-minute "Is your kid ready?" quiz on the website would function as user-generated marketing, lead generation, and filtering simultaneously. The website line "we don't push kids, we stop making them wait" is identified as particularly effective.
Language recommendations include avoiding terms like "unusually fast learner," "gifted," "IQ elite," or "top 1%" as these artificially constrain the market. The product benefits kids who aren't necessarily super-geniuses, and excluding language prevents reaching parents whose children would benefit.
Offering the product free or low-cost to schools serves as defense against criticism that it's "just for rich kids," though the $500 monthly price targets families who can afford premium solutions. With only four full-time employees plus contractors, unqualified leads requesting special treatment consume expensive internal time.
Effective social media examples include responding to critics with video evidence, such as showing two-year-olds reading when accused of selling "snake oil." Jumping into culture war topics forces readers to pick sides rather than envisioning their own children, making neutral evidence like the twins reading video more effective.
Tutor comparisons should account for the hidden costs of finding, managing, and scheduling tutors beyond hourly rates. The "what if you did nothing" framework suggests focusing on customers with budget rather than trying to justify pricing to edge cases. Initial wealthy customers can subsidize product development, enabling economies of scale and broader offerings at lower costs later.
The parent-focused value proposition emphasizes not having to teach or nag children. However, messaging about not having to teach might inadvertently trigger parental guilt about outsourcing education responsibilities.
The conversation focuses on how to effectively market an educational app without creating unrealistic expectations for parents. The key insight is that parents don't want to nag, police, or reward their children for learning, which creates a significant advantage for app-based solutions over traditional methods like books or live tutors.
You don't have to reward. You don't have to give cookies because the kids's just going to want to play this game. Period. Full stop.
A critical consideration emerges around parental identity and guilt. Some parents genuinely enjoy teaching their children, and positioning an app as "you don't have to teach" might create resistance by making parents feel disengaged or inadequate. The discussion emphasizes that the selling points should focus on eliminating the aspects parents universally dislike—nagging and policing—rather than removing the teaching element entirely.
The conversation stresses the importance of truthful marketing claims. Exaggeration is described as potentially fatal to a company's credibility because competitors can easily falsify exaggerated claims, which then calls into question all other marketing messages.
If you're exaggerating and inflating your claims, like, hey, you're going to reap what you sow.
Alternative phrasing is suggested such as "parents don't want to nag" and "no one wants to force their kid to learn," focusing on what parents genuinely want rather than making absolute claims about eliminating all parental involvement.
A key recommendation for investor updates is to place asks at the very top of communications, before any updates, numbers, or other information. This is because most investors receive 10-20 updates monthly and need to quickly identify opportunities to be helpful.
The discussion examines which marketing channels convert and retain customers effectively. X (formerly Twitter) and word of mouth are identified as the best-performing channels, primarily because the message reaches receptive audiences who already believe in accelerated learning.
Meta ads are noted as problematic because while they can generate cheap leads through viral content, these leads are often unqualified and don't represent the target demographic of parents who value accelerated learning enough to pay premium prices.
Several tagline variations are suggested for testing:
- "Less nagging for parents, faster learning for kids"
- "Faster learning for kids, less nagging for parents"
- "Faster learning for kids, less brain damage for parents"
A cultural battle around phonics education is discussed, noting that for 30 years schools have debated phonics versus whole-language approaches. The consensus outside education (cognitive science and academia) strongly supports phonics as the only effective way to teach reading, while schools have been resistant, preferring to focus on fostering love of reading rather than systematic phonics instruction.
A concern is raised about exchanges that might position the company as "Mentava versus teachers," which could create unnecessary conflict. The clarification is made that teachers are often victims of poor training in teachers college, where they were taught that phonics would turn kids off reading.
The timing and triggers for word-of-mouth referrals are examined. Parents typically experience a "wow moment" within the first week, sometimes the first day, when they realize the software works. However, there's significant reluctance to share due to cultural shame around using expensive educational resources ($500/month) to give children advantages.
An incentivized referral program offering a free month ($500 value) to both referrer and referee generated zero referrals despite known word-of-mouth activity. The hypothesis is that the target demographic (wealthy parents) doesn't value the financial incentive as much as the social currency implications of recommending the product.
Suggestions for improving referral programs include:
- Testing different incentive structures like "$500 credit" versus "one free month"
- Using scarcity with limited-time offers (first 100 people)
- Offering larger incentives like "free year if you refer three people" ($6,000 value)
A radical approach is proposed: making the main homepage a testimonial page featuring real customer experiences, with a persistent popup quiz prompt. This leverages social proof to overcome skepticism about company claims.
Two primary messaging approaches are being tested: "teach a kid to read" (which lacks differentiation) versus messaging around the mission of accelerated learning and how schools fail fast learners.
The effectiveness of testimonials is emphasized over company claims, following the AIDA framework (Attention, Interest, Decision, Action). A sample testimonial approach: "My daughter made more progress in one week with Mentava than six months in kindergarten."
The customer demographic is roughly 50/50 male/female based on customer calls, though earlier it was heavily male-skewed. The ideal customer profile includes parents aged 35-45, first-generation immigrants working at tech companies who view education as a pathway to success and are willing to invest financially in their children's advancement.
A specific issue is identified with the homepage video lacking audio functionality, which prevents potential customers from hearing children's interactions with the software. This was noted as an oversight that needs addressing.
The website features a menu bar at the top with options for parents, teachers, about, reviews, case studies, sign up, login, and a get started button in the top right. A giant video plays with no audio featuring a cute character from the Mentava app. Under the autoplay video, the text reads "Most education companies try to lift the floor. We want to remove the ceiling. Mentava was built for unusually fast learners. Try it for free" with a button. The "try it for free" button is positioned at the screen edge on a 13-inch MacBook display.
Heat maps display redder areas indicating higher click frequency, with tiny circles showing where users click or attempt to click. The video appears to be the most clicked element, though it doesn't perform any action when clicked.
Mockups created using Claude were developed in an incredibly short period of time. Lenny Rachtisky provided tips on using LLMs for design and turning AI into a world-class designer. The mockups show several differences from the current website design.
The mockups replace "get started" in the top right with "is my child ready" as a button, which can be split tested. The current tagline "Most education companies try to lift the floor. We want to remove the ceiling" was compared to alternatives. One preferred option is "Faster learning, less nagging for parents" or "Less nagging for parents." Another tested tagline is "Some kids are ready to read before school is ready to teach them," though the speaker finds "ready" and "read" too similar phonetically.
The current tagline creates confusion about who the product serves - whether it's an education company, clinic, or company selling to nursery schools or daycare centers. A clearer alternative is "Mentava is expert reading instruction for your child" or "Mentava teaches reading that your child will actually want to do." Key features below include "15 to 30 minutes a day, a coach on call and nobody in your house has to be the teacher."
Two buttons appear below the features: "Take the two-minute readiness check" and "How it works." A video could autoplay with audio. One approach places pricing information ($500 a month per child, most families finish in 6 to 12 months, free 14-day trial) in fine print below the readiness check. An alternative approach leads directly with the price point.
The company has had success leading with the $500 monthly price, with customers stating they chose the service because the high cost indicated it wasn't a scam and that the company couldn't survive for years if the product wasn't working effectively.
One mockup has the tagline "for children who are ready before school is" which is preferred over the first option. Another mockup appears too focused on selling a tablet rather than the actual service. A third mockup leads with testimonials, which is preferred. The speaker notes having an "embarrassment of riches" when it comes to testimonials.
Suggested testimonial types include one about a daughter learning more in one week with Mentava than six months in kindergarten, and another about families getting rid of tutors. Real testimonials mentioned include "Last fall, he didn't know how to read his letters. Now he can read his baby brother a book before bed" and "There's not a world where I could teach a child to read without your app."
The homepage should be viewed as a print advertisement with clean visual progression - people are drawn to graphics, then the largest headline, then the second largest. Visual tracking should avoid a "pinball machine" effect. For left-to-right readers, the video could be placed on the left with the headline on the right. The third mockup includes bubbles highlighting "15 minutes a day" and "A real coach for you on the couch in pajamas."
When users sign up, they are prompted to book a call to discuss where their child is stuck, previous issues, and how the free trial is going. The parent app allows 24/7 chat with responses as fast as possible, used for both customer support and helping parents understand if their kids are engaging correctly with the program.
The target age range is 3 to 5 year olds, with the speaker preferring "three and a half" as the lower bound. Two-year-olds are very rare success cases, and defining the age range upfront helps avoid introducing noise and time-consuming activities from families trying the program too early.
Being explicit about who the product is for and who it is not for makes everything easier. The 4-Hour Workweek was positioned for people in jobs who want to experiment with designing their own lifestyle, ideally starting a product-based company rather than a service company. Maui Nui venison is positioned as expensive, premium nutrition for people willing to overspend on the best, including professional sports teams, collegiate sports teams, and military.
Rather than using multiple paragraphs that might accidentally insult people, price itself serves as a clear delineator. Alternative messaging could compare "teaching your kid to fish as opposed to giving them a fish" - traditional education gives kids a fish and forces them to eat it, while the alternative allows kids to love learning with 15 minutes on a tablet without requiring parental teaching.
One framing option: "For parents who realize that the education system in the US is broken in one fundamental way: eager fast learners cannot learn at their own pace." Punk rock bands and fashion brands effectively position themselves by making stark contrasts between "our people and not our people."
A book on saying no is being positioned as primarily about making high-leverage decisions, with the first third focused on identifying or creating the few things to say yes to that make all the difference. The positioning deliberately targets people who have had some success, figured out one thing they're good at, and now have too much inbound and too many requests on their time - estimated at well over 100 million people.
The approach involves looking for the fast-growing, undervalued channel, then finding the most uncrowded path to communicating with taste makers in that sphere. For the 4-Hour Workweek launch in 2007, blogs were identified as the emerging channel, leading to flying to conferences like Web Expo to meet bloggers in person rather than using crowded email channels.
For the 4-Hour Chef launch in 2012, podcasts were identified as the emerging channel. Joe Rogan was featured before becoming mainstream, along with Nerdist, Marc Maron, and Adam Carolla. This experience informed starting the Tim Ferriss Show podcast in 2014.
In-person workshopping provides the fastest real feedback through observing body language - whether people lean in or lean back, ask follow-up questions, or respond with minimal engagement. Digital metrics like clicks provide measurable data but miss facial expressions and pauses that indicate engagement levels.
When someone asks "What do you do?" and receives the answer "I write books," 99% of people follow up with "What kind of books?" However, answering "I'm an accountant" typically ends the conversation. Testing messaging through casual conversations at events or bars reveals which elements people organically latch onto versus what gets discounted.
Intro calls with new customers present opportunities to ask what messaging would have prompted their signup and what pain points drove their decision. Networking events can test taglines to see what generates longer conversations. Actual purchase behavior provides stronger signal than preference surveys between options A and B.
When customers proactively engage with a product rather than responding to direct questions, it indicates genuine interest rather than people-pleasing behavior. This requires talking to multiple people to distinguish authentic engagement from social compliance. The 4-hour work week concept emerged from workshopping material through guest lectures given twice per year, functioning like a stand-up comic routine where jokes that fell flat twice were removed.
For testing copy options and mockups, the most valuable approach uses your own website where you control the environment and can discern purchase intent. Pikfu (P I C K FU) provides instant consumer feedback, split testing, and market research using Amazon Prime members with specified demographics. The platform surfaces three options for comparison and has been used by major companies including HBO Max, L'Oreal, and Wayfair.
When launching the coyote card game with Exploding Kittens, the strategy avoided using Amazon as the debut platform. Instead of testing in thousands of Walmart and Target stores without sufficient data, the approach used Pikfu to gather 5,000 votes within 72 hours for approximately $500-600. This provided statistically significant signals for design and packaging decisions without risking the debut on Amazon.
When sample sizes produce close results like 49% versus 51%, additional testing is warranted rather than stopping at minimum thresholds. False positives can occur with smaller samples, and results often flip with larger sample sizes. The approach emphasizes avoiding bare minimum testing because statistical outcomes can reverse with increased volume.
Viewers were encouraged to examine mentava.com and share feedback on X tagging @neilshoven (N I E L S H O V E N) regarding resonating elements, potential taglines, and most compelling language or features.
The competitive analysis identified several categories: cheap reading apps, teacher-sold books and kits, live online tutors, and comprehensive localized options like Alpha School. Alpha School represents a different category altogether, with Niels noting his child uses their homeschool program and that Alpha School investors include Joe Lamont.
Joe Lamont offered to fund the entire round immediately. A personal connection exists through Trilogy Software, where Niels reached final interview rounds and visited Austin, though he didn't receive an offer. This experience contributed to his decision to remain in Austin for over a decade.
The challenge involves reaching parents who don't yet recognize how school may limit their children's potential or that optimal acceleration opportunities exist before formal schooling begins. Parents may not realize the gap between their child's current performance and potential, making it difficult to position solutions as painkillers for known problems.
One key argument for early reading instruction is providing negotiating leverage when schools attempt to hold children back, as parents can advocate for additional opportunities by demonstrating their child's existing reading ability.
Three strategic positions emerged: focusing on referral engines among customers who already understand the problem, since their social networks likely share similar perspectives; distinguishing between congregating the converted versus converting non-believers; and providing customers with specific language and tools to explain unrecognized problems to their peers.
A 2-minute readiness test could provide valuable, interesting information that parents would share with friends. Unlike direct product recommendations that might trigger social judgment about spending $500 monthly, sharing a free assessment avoids this perception while still introducing the concept. The test should feel illuminating and useful even if parents never use Mentava.
The IndUS Entrepreneur (TiE) organization at tie.org represents the world's largest community of entrepreneurs, founded as a nonprofit with notable board members including Narayana Murthy (Infosys) and Jensen Huang. The organization has chapters across the US including Seattle, Atlanta, Austin, Boston, and Dallas, plus international locations like Nairobi.
TiE's audience of first and second-generation immigrants demonstrates exceptional commitment to education. Speaking at TiE events, particularly the TiE Global Summit or TiE SV Silicon Valley, provides access to warm audiences already convinced about educational acceleration who simply need to learn about available solutions.
Cold emailing organizations with thematically relevant presentation proposals is standard practice. When pitching, customize messaging to the specific audience while leveraging professional credentials such as experience at ClassDojo, Pocket Gems (highest grossing mobile game in 2011), and Cloud.
Rather than focusing extensively on Mentava's origin story, presentations should address broader topics like behavioral optimization, motivation engineering, or education innovation in the United States, with brief mentions of the company as context. Success metrics should be clearly defined—whether recruiting, gathering feedback, or other objectives—with earlier speaking slots preferred for maximum audience retention.
Creating concentrated visibility within specific communities generates perceived momentum and ubiquity. The strategy involves achieving critical mass within focused populations rather than attempting broad market penetration initially. This approach proved effective with 4-hour work week marketing targeting 20-35-year-old tech-savvy males in San Francisco.
Indian communities in the United States represent a concrete, achievable target market with high educational values. Potential tactics include sponsoring TiE events, identifying relevant apps or platforms for community cohesion, and having team members actively participate in relevant Facebook groups or WhatsApp communities while offering free trials in exchange for feedback.
First-generation Chinese parents who immigrated to the US demonstrate exceptional commitment to providing educational advantages. A customer example involved a Chinese/Vietnamese parent who valued Mentava because limited English proficiency prevented direct teaching, allowing the parent to supervise while the child used the app independently.
Premium pricing creates upward pressure on product quality while enabling focus on discrete populations already convinced about educational acceleration. The business model benefits from customers who view education as essential rather than optional, requiring tools and guidance for most children rather than relying on self-directed learning.
People are willing to pay for high-quality educational solutions if they have the means. Niels Hoven and Mentava can be found at mentava.com. The website may be revised by the time viewers access it. Niels can be found on X at Niels Hoven (spelled N-I-E-L-S H-O-V-E-N). Tim was interested in asking about Beauty and the Geek but saved it for round two.
Niels' one request to people, whether or not they try Mentava, is that parents will have to advocate for their child throughout their lives, especially when it comes to education. Never let anybody make you feel guilty for advocating for your kid.
Tim appreciates the great place to close. He thanks Niels for taking the time and expresses love for Mentava's mission, purpose, ethos, and product. Tim encourages listeners to look at the testimonies on the website, describing them as "bananas."
Links to everything will be included in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. Searching for "Niels" or "Mentava" will yield the only result. The sex compatibility tests will probably not be included in the links.
Tim closes with the message to be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself. He emphasizes making sure that compassion includes yourself. The episode ends with thanks for tuning in.
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