Defining Healthy Masculinity & How to Build It | Terry Real
These notes were generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.
A good Morani (Maasai warrior) is fierce and a killer when the moment calls for it, but lays down his sword and shield to be tender like a baby when needed. What makes a great Morani is knowing which moment is which.
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, discussing science and science-based tools for everyday life. Host: Andrew Huberman, professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
Guest: Terry Real, therapist and foremost expert on male psychology and male-female dynamics in romantic relationships.
- Rates of depression and suicide at all-time high in men.
- Fewer men in romantic relationships; many have no single close friend.
- Conflicted public messaging on how to show up in relationships.
Men must treat relating as a skill requiring action, feelings, processing, and communicating those feelings specifically (sometimes not at all).
Critical importance of fraternity: belonging to a trusted group of men for enjoyment, honest feedback, and accountability (not college fraternities).
Terry Real answers hard questions directly about men and women; most therapists avoid this publicly.
- In couples work, women and men equally bad at relationships but in different ways.
- Offers solutions for thriving relationships.
Provides practical tools for men and women of all ages to build mental health, thrive at work/school/relationships, and develop strong self-concept, agency, and confidence.
Podcast separate from Huberman's Stanford teaching/research; aims to bring zero-cost science-based information to public.
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Terry Real: Old male role has shifted; men grappling with identity post-fathers'/grandfathers' era. Reaction to feminism: women had revolution, men dealing with it.
- Backlash: resurgence globally of unattractive traditional masculinity (powerful, dominant, entitled, aggressive).
- Seen in politics (autocracy, dominance celebrated), tired of 'woke' messaging that men are bad.
"Women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it."
Terry grew up in 1960s height of feminism, considers himself feminist family therapist (had long hair, mustache, did drugs).
1960s joke: "If a man speaks in the woods and there's no one there, is he still wrong?"
Early feminism angry reaction to oppression; friends/colleagues like Ms. Piel, Carol Gilligan are man-loving feminists.
Political patriarchy exists globally (women oppressed); psychological patriarchy (dynamics) toxic straightjacket for everyone (between any two people/races).
Traditional masculinity has some positives but mostly unhealthy.
Men's reaction to criticism: throw off shackles, celebrate old entitlements/freedoms → does not breed happy humans.
Need models of progressive masculinity, not regressive (rare).
Andrew Huberman: More templates now than before?
- 1940s/1950s: narrow template (stoic, provider, protector, no feelings). Even diagrams forbade hands on hips/tilted hip as feminine; scripted behavior (simpler but masked issues).
- 1980s/1990s: mishmash expansion (football jocks, finance guys, artsy artists, hippies, rock/roll like Bon Jovi). First gay male characters (e.g., Real World: San Francisco – Pedro Zamora died of AIDS).
- Now: heterosexual male artists dress femininely (e.g., David Bowie precedent); young men (20s/30s/40s) comfortable with self-expression via feminist mothers.
Terry Real: Younger men have access to emotion but whine women aren't attracted; bring traditional male privilege (emotional now, so take care of me). Women complain men childish, don't stand up/responsible/giving.
Progressive masculinity: big-hearted, open, emotional, responsible and giving (missing in traditional and many countercultural models).
Missing in culture: relationality, beauty of connection.
Science confirms (Terry said 40 years ago): humans designed for connection (pack animals). Lack as bad physically as smoking 1.5 packs of cigarettes/day (Vivek Murthy).
Male depression (Terry wrote in 1990s): turning boys into men via disconnection (from feelings, vulnerability, others, mother → called 'autonomy'). Cost: disconnection.
Some men recover feelings but lack art of connection.
Teaches high-achievers: gratification (short-term pleasure hit, culture loves) vs. relational joy (deeper; e.g., parenting – sometimes frustrating but connective).
Culture: anti-relational, narcissistic; patriarchy terms shifted but narcissism/relational lack persists.
Men encouraged to feel feelings (not bottle up; linked to heart health, Type A holding inside die early; catharsis like screaming helped longevity).
Decision tree: feel alone or with others? Avoid emotional privilege (dumping on others).
Healthy example (hetero couple, sadness/frustration): negotiation, not demand.
Focus: not just feelings, but connection. Recover feelings to connect via vulnerability, move beyond selfishness.
Example: Terry nervous pre-podcast (many listeners), called mutual friend Bea (she reassured, described experience); reciprocal (Terry supported her relationship talk).
Men lose capacity to ask for help (not demand; reciprocal).
Want men whole, own vulnerabilities in relational context: connected, not cut off/imposing, learned the art
Men have lost the art of simply being with emotions, asking partners to be with them, and reciprocating. Many women are angry because they don't feel heard. Terry Real specializes in couples on the brink of divorce.
An angry woman is a woman who doesn't feel heard.
Men often respond to angry women by pushing back, getting defensive, or withdrawing. Advice: Lead men to ask, "Tell me why you're angry. Tell me what you would like."
I know how you can disarm an angry woman in five seconds 50% of the time, which is better than you're doing. Give her what she wants. Let me ask you what's going on with you and do what I can to help out.
This is a new skill for our culture, linking to men and self-esteem.
Healthy Self-Esteem
Healthy self-esteem comes from inside out: worth because I'm here and breathing, unearned, equal to others.
Men are taught outside-in self-esteem based on performance (muscles, job, orgasm, homerun). Failure leads to shame, loss of worth.
Healthy self-esteem: feel proportionally bad about bad behavior ("I screwed up. I'm sorry") while holding self in warm regard as imperfect person.
Avoid: shameless (grandiose, sociopathic) or shame ("I'm useless, beat myself up").
When you go from shameless bad behavior... to, oh my god, that's terrible. I'm a big [loser]. You're trading one form of self-preoccupation for another.
Expression of Emotion
Expressing emotions is vital for physical, mental, relational health; holding inside kills you and makes others miserable.
Healthy engagement: not dumping emotions.
- Ask for help (e.g., calling therapist Bea Wohl, expressing concern like nervous or sad).
- Women (and others) naturally reach out to help when couched this way.
Icarus Syndrome
In absence of worthiness, men feel they must earn love, leave family to "fly to sun" (provider/protector role), while family wants connection ("sit down and play Monopoly").
Just sit down and be still and be connected. That's all you need to do.
Provider role brings joy but pain of absence.
Responding to Upset Partners
When woman upset: ask "What do you need from me right now?" – water in the desert.
Men respond to simple instructions.
Self-esteem: accept responsibility ("I'm a good guy who screwed up") without shame.
Handling Criticism and Accountability
Lack of self-esteem makes men unaccountable; criticism triggers shame overwhelm, leading to defensiveness.
Healthy self-esteem enables accountability: "Okay, you're right. I screwed up. What can I do to help?"
Applies to bosses/feedback too.
Two forms of criticism:
- What you did (bad behavior).
- What you didn't do (often due to provider busyness, blind spots; men/women perceive differently).
Jiu-Jitsu Relational Skills
Duck under horrible delivery (characterological assassination), address their ouch: "What are you so upset about? What can I give you right now?"
This calms them quickly; reacting escalates.
You're a shitty human being... That's shame. You have enough boundaries... "Well, they're being abusive. This is not the best part of them." But... "What can I do to help you?"
Redefines strength: not rumble/standing up, but elegance – sidestep, diffuse in 10-15 minutes.
I was really elegant. I just sidestepped that whole thing.
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Criticism: What Wasn't Done
Men busy providing; real time constraints, blind spots (vision scientist note: men/women see/hear differently; politically incorrect but true).
Healthy delivery from partner: avoid character assassination.
Healthy Criticism Delivery
It's more than a two-way street. Teach women relational skills too.
You don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for.
Women must assert, teach, reward.
Three Steps for Women to Get What They Want
- Dare to rock the boat: Assert importance.
- Teach: Subjectively explain what you want ("This is what I want to make me happy").
- Reward: Celebrate efforts ("glass 14% full"), encourage.
Example (John Gray): Men problem-solve; women want empathy. Negotiate upfront: "15 minutes, be like a girlfriend: 'That sucks. Tell me more.'"
As a favor to me, would you do it?
More assertion upfront, less resentment backend.
Relational Integrity
Respond with skill regardless of partner's behavior (Tuesday good, Thursday bad).
You're immature right now. I'm going to meet your immaturity with my maturity.
Liberating: not slave to their immaturity.
Inner Child Model
Natural child: healthy, explorative, fun, sweet, mischievous, lovable, erotic, spontaneous – celebrate, leave alone.
Unhealthy child: brattiness, entitlement, closing up – destructive.
Work applies to all relationships (boss, colleagues, family, dog).
Wise Adult Model
Grow wise adult (prefrontal cortex: think, reason, choose, skills).
Trauma: Present triggers past (violation/abandonment/mistreatment/neglect). We relive, not remember (e.g., combat vet car backfire).
Present goes away, subcortical limbic system amygdala activates.
The present goes away and it's the subcortical limbic system, amygdala, and you get flooded. That's what we call the wounded child. Very young, first minutes of life through four or five years old. That's all feeling, the part that just experiences it. Between this very mature, present-based part of us and this totally flooded, very primitive part is the adaptive child. This is the you that you learn to be to cope with whatever was going on. It's neither fight, flight, nor fawn. It's automatic, subcortical, and utterly compelling: 'I've got to stand up for myself. I've got to shut this down. I've got to fix you if you're upset.' These are basic animal survival instincts. When in the adaptive child, you won't use relational skills because you're interested in survival, not relationship. It's a different part of our neurology.
The work is called relational mindfulness. When flooded, bring the prefrontal cortex back online: take a walk, take 10 breaths, go around the block, take a break. Get reentered in the more thoughtful, non-flooded part (responsive brain per Dan, vs. reactive brain). Then remembering love: remember the person as someone you care about, then go back and try.
We all struggle with adaptive child parts. Couples on the brink of divorce live in their adaptive child, thinking it's adult. The world rewards adaptive child (fight, flight, or fix), but you'll make a hash of family life. When flooded and automatic (hallmark of adaptive child), identify: fight, flight, or fix? What's your partner's? What's the dance? (e.g., more I fight, more they fix). Way out: bring thinking brain online. Relational mindfulness—capacity to remember to think and return to present—can be cultivated and grown.
Asking for Space Effectively
Essential to take space/break when entering adaptive child. Best way to ask: Contract for it when heat is not on. 'Listen, honey. I get flooded and you don't want me flooded. I'm not nice or skilled when flooded. I need to collect myself. It's in your interest.' Skill: responsible distance taking (not unilateral 'I'm gone'). Specify why, when coming back (not rupture, it's a break). For partner vulnerable to abandonment: take care of them so they give distance. If not, they'll chase.
Contract example: When not flooded, agree: 'I get flooded, we don't like it. I take break: 15-20 minutes, then back. If not in control, text/call to negotiate, but not leaving irresponsibly, not forever. What do you need to be calm enough to let me go?' 9/10 times, contract is fine. Remind of it: 'Taking time out so I can be with you. 20 minutes, back. Here's why, here's when.' No abandonment if steps followed.
How resourced you are matters: sleep-deprived, overworked, kids up all night, financial issues—if well is low, access to skills harder. No pleading special circumstances; relentless, no pass. Understand why you'd be immature/unskilled when sleep-deprived, but you'll pay the price (instant karma). Beauty: remembering it's in my interest to behave artfully, not for them.
Story: Son in Residency
One son in residency, sleep-deprived, out of mind, no contact for week. Mom calls: 'Worried, thought you dead.' He says called but no answer. 'Did you leave message?' 'No.' 'Why? Didn't have it in me.' Advice: Leave 10-second message: 'Alive, fine. Don't worry.' Investment in future well-being; less to deal with than 20-min mom call. Prefrontal cortex knows: behave well for less trouble; limbic doesn't.
High Achievers and Perfectionism
High achievers (son: 3 degrees elite university, residency): 10-second message hard—do excellently or not at all. 'Can't do well, so don't do.' Not relational. Medicine saturated with patriarchy, hazing like boot camp, Marines. Deprives humanity. Step back: What's in my interest? 10-sec msg or 20-min convo? We're not individuals (great fallacy), living in context. Relationships are our biospheres—not separated, in them. In interest to do what biosphere needs (incited).
Gregory Bateson (father family therapy, anthropologist married Margaret Mead), genius: humankind's epistemological/philosophical mistake—we stand outside nature. Tough guys: 'Why work hard to please wife?' 'You live with her.' Lost ecology wisdom. Indigenous understand; we're not above/dominating nature (traditional men), nor below/upregulating (traditional women). We're in it. Steward of it. New masculinity: life as human relational/ecological. Not above, in it, steward. Give to biosphere = wisdom.
Place for men to develop skills in company of other men (traditional way). 50s/60s: socializing around alcohol/sports.
Anecdote: Beach Room at UC Berkeley
Grad school: Fridays seminar then home. 30 years prior, Frank Beach (biopsychologist/endocrinologist) & colleagues (all men) every evening in Beach Room, trashed, stagger home. Standard (smoke, drink, drunk). Talked science, grants, occasionally family. Felt good to relax, say anything (no phones/internet). End-of-day catharsis, their therapy (despite alcoholism/abuse risks). Discourage drinking (zero > low moderation).
Where men go now to relate, build healthy skills for partners/work? Men gathering scares people ('bad things happen'). Erased vessels for self-standing, relating, stress relief (not bring home). Now alone/phones → dissociation/distraction/social media.
Men's Loneliness Epidemic
Epidemic of loneliness: men. Hetero couples: man dies, woman ok; woman dies, man trouble. Single men greatest public health crisis. Relational skills with pals too. Many men few/no friends. Therapy: start having deeper friends.
Teach: 6 golf guys (sports/politics/wives)—pick receptive one, share vulnerable: 'Chronic back pain, getting old, scary' or 'Out of work 14 months.' If 'What about those socks?'—done, superficial ok. If receptive ('Tough, I've been worried... my dick not working') → heart-to-heart.
Experiment: drive relationships deeper by sharing more, discriminate but be courageous. Crisis of men alone/no support: great modern problem.
Robert Bly, Iron John (great book, Mr. Men's Movement: guys drumming woods). Did men's weekend Moose Lodge with Bly (Sufi dances, tribal, drumming). Bly on boys' fathers: places of father's absence where demons enter young boy (wound/shards of shadow → addiction etc.). Ahead of time.
Shaman Story: Martin Prechtel
Shaman Martin Prechtel (older boomer men 50s/60s): brought Bloods/Crips urban gang teens for initiation (older teach younger, missing in culture). As gangs off bus: held sheet, 'Old shaman custom, sacred weekend, divest all metal.' They gave knives, brass knuckles, chains, guns. Made up to disarm. (YouTube footage.)
When speaking: Beautiful/necessary what we're doing, but take home to families. Can't be intimate with men weekend then not with wives/kids.
Modern Fraternities
Fraternities missing (harder access, online instead). Podcasts like Jocko Willink (modern Gen. Patton, warrior, kind father/husband/friend)—young/old men feel fraternity online.
Value in-person work/collaboration (e.g., excessive Beach Room drinking 40s-60s: fraternity for job conventions, hierarchy). Hierarchy among men: figure strengths/weaknesses, complementarity → empowered force (no major gaps).
Gangs are fraternities (home not for fraternity). Failure-to-launch kids (parents call): no fraternity (video games not). Overwhelmed: work out, eat right, empathic, provider/protector etc. Need group to figure good/suck/better at.
Past: fraternities like skateboarding (all guys, 13yo w/30-40yo, tests to join), science/research (50/50 biology students then, learn self-esteem/acceptance there). Not get everything from romantic relationship.
Terry emphasizes the need for fraternities where young and older men can connect, recommending men's groups without a therapist: get together with four other guys and talk about your lives, or join a bowling league. Fraternities should support relationality, not individual empowerment and entitlement. Fraternity is inherently relational; activities done alone aren't. Avoid groups that foster complaining or incel attitudes, like gathering to bash women or life—complaining beyond a threshold becomes self-abuse.
Train friends to support relationships, not individual empowerment: when venting about a partner, redirect to "What did you do to contribute? What might you do differently?" Support the mature, relational self, countering cultural pull toward "I wouldn't put up with that."
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Parents (always about sons) contact about smart kids post-college going nowhere, checked for ADHD/depression, tried interventions, but off-path. These men seek groups, work, purpose—not just relationship skills (some have caring partners carrying the load). They lack male friends, golf buddies; stressed by hair loss, sexual issues (possibly med-related), overwhelmed. Advice: hike Yosemite with a trusted able-bodied friend (e.g., Tuolumne Meadows—bring water, avoid giardia/freezing). Make friends by doing; phone won't work there. Gym alone (scrolling social media) isn't enough.
High-THC cannabis correlates with apathy, regulation issues in young men; excessive drinking too. Suggest 12-step meetings. Creatine/supplements won't fix life messes (no job, partner supporting).
Hearing frequent cases, including self-harm attempts; recent colleague suicide (married, two kids)—should've said "Let's hike Yosemite."
Romantic partners insufficient; need place in world, good work, purpose, community, buddies (men or women). Start simple: be with someone, no heart-to-heart required initially.
Men need grown-ups teaching grown-up skills; not only men—lesbian parents, single moms can raise boys (research confirms). Boys benefit from male role models to emulate, but don't obsess/exclude others. Greatest mentors can be women (Huberman's grad mentor, moms of friends).
Peggy Penn Story
Family therapist Peggy Penn (married to Arthur Penn, director of Bonnie and Clyde) told of Arthur golfing Sundays with guys. She challenged him (as gender expert) to discuss feelings. Next week: he reported deep traumas shared—then admitted, "You're full of shit. We played golf."
Fan of Stand by Me (Rob Reiner)—key for pre-pubertal boys' self-concept (superheroes, cartoons; debate Mighty Mouse vs. Superman). River Phoenix advanced developmentally. Value of moving through space together: golf (slow), hiking (no athleticism needed; day hike, car camping).
In remote Maasai village on Maasai land, Tanzania (10-hour drive, building school), four-night men's group with elders. Asked: good Morani (warrior-man) strong/tough or sensitive/kind? Elder (seemingly 300): Won't discuss good Morani; great Morani knows moments—fierce/killer when called (swords/shields), tender/baby-like when called. Adaptability, flexibility, wholeness: strong/vulnerable/related/firm as needed.
In friction (romantic/family), be skilled—smart, in your interest, not giving in.
Economic Warrior Piece
Men anxious about livelihoods (AI tidal wave, unlike past transitions like coding/factory closures). Place in world/purpose challenged; shift from "work you love" to "make a living." Women in workforce erode position (both slay dragons, share dishes—correlates with her paycheck size; egalitarian two-career families).
Boys underperform vs. girls (grades/school); hype partly comparative—women advancing.
80s-2000s addictions (mostly men) linked to absent fathers (predicts addiction/death)—neglect wounds more than violence sometimes. Robert Bly: "Every time a young man says hello to an older successful man who doesn't respond, wound in the soul."
Unholy triad of patriarchy: absent/irresponsible dad, unhappy/accommodating mom, sweet/smart/sensitive boy caretakes mom (template: one-sided, ambivalent closeness).
Useful: Hillary Clinton (via Carla Shatz, "fire together, wire together")—first 6 years critical (brain plasticity, nurturing; not classical music).
Toxic: Bill Clinton/single-mom story promoted "one caring person enough" (benevolent, but ignores need for more).
The idea that one person caring is sufficient is toxic, counter to nurturing needs. Divorce can save or destroy families, but single parenting requires a community to fill roles. Difference between single parent with community support versus two parents where one is emotionally absent, which creates a wound. Distant dads lead to brokenhearted moms resenting and downloading distress to sons, skewing relationships where sons parent moms.
Intergenerational Transmission and Love Avoidant Pattern
Sons develop love avoidant template: caretaking without vulnerability, replicating distance generationally.
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Women are better but not angels; must learn subjectivity, avoid coaching partners arrogantly. Speak relationally, not objectively.
Example: Reckless Driver Objectivity Battle
Common fight: "You're a reckless driver" vs. "You're overly nervous." Leads to decades-long objectivity battle marshaling evidence.
Relational fix in one session:
"Honey, I know you love me. When you drive on your own, I worry, but it's your life. When I'm in the car, tailgating and speeding make me crazy—I'm scared. You love me; you don't want me scared. As a favor, when I'm in the car, slow down."
Response: "Sure, honey." Ends potential 40-year fight. Subjective speech can't be argued ("I know, but I do"). Starts with "I know you love me," humble request, team-oriented. Relational answer to right/wrong: who cares—how do we make it work as a team.
Women more relational than men but need skills training.
What we self-medicate is the pain of disconnection. The cure for addiction is intimacy.
12-step fan; mentor PM Melody (book on codependency). Sobriety via 12-step; intimacy keeps sober. Trauma is disconnection/loneliness; substances are misery stabilizers like drinking saltwater for thirst—worsens it.
Three Levels of Addiction Treatment
- Level A: Addiction itself (12-step for sobriety).
- Level B: Personality immaturities.
- Level C: Early trauma.
All wrapped in relational connection: connect to hurt inner child, mature personality, reduce grandiosity/self-medication. King of recovery: connect to self and others.
Fellowship teaches listening, quiet presence. Open AA meetings welcome non-addicts (first names only; observers say "I'm here to learn"). Format: reading, speaker (5-15+ min), round-robin shares (1-3 min opt.), traditions discussion. Costs nothing, worldwide, in-person/online. Teaches listening; sharing benefits others (fellowship service). Cheerful, empowering vibe, not dungeon-like. Even non-addicts gain relational skills.
Terry's 12-Step Stories
Pia: Intimacy is conjunction of truth and love; 12-step her model.
- Friend Allan attends Al-Anon: people share horrible things; group just be with each other—spiritually refreshing.
- Men's 12-step group: older man says, > "I've never been intimate with anybody in my life and I expect I'll die alone." Group neither pulls away nor fixes—just present. That's intimacy. 12-step wiser than culture.
Huberman: 98% good meetings; in-person value amid online disconnection. Many undiagnosed addicts (numbing, rage baiting shorts, porn).
Boys by 12-13 see thousands of vaginas/sex scenes (average US). Belinda (Terry's wife, certified sex addiction therapist). Internet sells intensity (algorithm drug) substituting for relational joy—gratifying but short-lived, pulls from depression.
Huberman slams energy drinks: packing intensity into less space. Nervous about podcast's optimization rep (supplements, workouts, sunlight)—but optimization means best day, including stillness/meditation. Circadian health: bright days, dark nights prevent mental illness/relationship damage. Podcast covers psychology/biology/tools; balance (e.g., fit people overdo reps, neglect reading).
12-step templates listening/relating.
Book title: Death: The End of Self-Improvement—sit, tea, trees. Families thrive in interstices, not "quality time" (yuppie invention). Kids open up in backseat, cooking—not laser-focused attention.
Hang out, be human, less perfect.
Personal Stories
- Huberman: Post-divorce (age 14), fond memories of unstructured evenings—mom cooking, TV (Wonder Years, dating show), music/phone—not trips.
- Grad adviser Barbara Chapman (pure scientist, died 2014 cancer). Daughters at memorial: > "The thing we remember best... was all the unstructured time. She would just hang out with us." More valued than trips/World Series/science meetings. One daughter now neuroscience grad student.
Rock star (not Bruce Springsteen, who wrote album intro): > "On stage with 60,000, I'm alive. Home with wife/four kids, computer on sleep mode—half shut down, depressed." Slept 10 hours/day. Therapy: distinguish gratification vs. relational joy, hanging out. Kids say "daddy"; advised:
Terry Real shares a true story of working with a father who resisted relational engagement. He instructed the father to stop saying no and start saying yes to family invitations. Example: "Dad, let's go for a walk." The father complied, got out of his chair, and went. Six months later, the father reported the best day of his life: he, his wife, and four kids stayed in PJs all day playing Monopoly from 7 AM to 7 PM, losing track of time in pure joy. Real responded, > "Welcome to relational joy."
That's what humans are born for. Even with tough couples and tough guys, relational connection is the ace in his pocket. Relational Life Therapy (RLT) therapists move clients from disconnection to the jet stream of connection and relational joy, leading to rapid transformation because it fulfills us.
Yeah. It's almost like the best stuff is the stuff that you would never post on social media because it's so boring for the internet and so awesome in real life.
Yeah. Well said. That's what I want.
Host describes catching the relational vibe. He's relational for better or worse, fortunate in pursuing peace and simplicity outside his intense professional life. Recent highlights: an awesome hike with a friend focused on talking and hanging out; spending time with girlfriend hanging out listening to music (she has great taste, treasure trove of music). Even dislikes become enjoyable in this peaceful landscape. Admits being an intensity junkie and adrenaline buddy in the past, but now intimacy appeals more.
No, intimacy is better. Gratification is fine, but intimacy is better. It's a deeper satisfaction.
Real discusses relational recovery: recovering the relational state we're born for, beyond just addictions.
Operating with maturity, skill, health, integrity... your life is simple. Being up, that's complicated. Fighting for a day and a half, that's complicated.
Example: When wife says, "I'm really mad," respond, "I'm sorry, honey. What can I do to help you?" She chills in 10 minutes. Relationality is simple; non-relationality is complicated.
Host proposes turning the table: men have valid complaints too. The seesaw often tilts one way, contributing to male crisis. How to voice concerns, requests, criticism healthily and relationally.
Real dislikes criticism. Teaches feedback wheel (online course available). Humans have negative bias from evolution (spotting saber-tooth tigers). Discipline: Write complaint, flip page—inside every complaint is a request. Skip complaint 9/10 times, go straight to request.
Especially women to men: Men are criticism phobic (self-esteem based on performance). Say, "You're doing a great job. This would work better."
Don't criticize to get more—empower partner. > "Sharing your misery at what your partner's done wrong is not going to motivate them... Help them do it better. We're a team."
Feedback wheel (from Janet Hurley, Pia Mellody's 12-step sponsor): Four parts (now 8 sentences, 2 each, cultural dispensation for East Coast Jew):
- This is what happened (as I recollect, subjective).
- This is the story I told myself (own nasty thoughts: selfish, forgot us, work more important).
- This is what I felt (flip habitual feeling: if anger-prone, say hurt; if hurt-prone, say strength like disrespectful).
- This would make me feel better (lead to repair).
Example: "Belinda to Terry: You said home at 7, no call/text, arrived 7:45, kids and I waiting. Story: selfish. Felt: hurt. This would help: [repair]."
For every complaint, I want 99 requests.
Host notes no current critiques, only gratitude post-50th birthday shift (brain changes at 50, per Stanford professor friend; outlived heroes, not impressed by 27 club).
You don't sweat the small stuff. There's some wisdom in being an elder.
Real and wife Belinda (both fighters from violent families) used to fight for weeks: yelling, rage, no sleep. Now 99% repair quickly. Process: Take break (15-20 min), one approaches: > "I don't want to fight. Do you? ... What do you need?"
Own it, apologize specifically, negotiate: > "I'll apologize about one... What about two and three? ... Good. What's on TV? Let's cuddle."
Mindset: > "How do I want to spend my evening? ... Make peace efficiently and skillfully... I'm making peace for me."
Behave with skill because it's in our interest. Powerful: Ask what do you need? when limbic system activates.
All relationships: endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair (from Ed Tronick, infant researcher with Beatrice Beebe). Culture lacks repair skills. In disruption, lose prefrontal cortex (wise adult), enter adaptive child. Skills: Regain right mind, then > "What do you need? Let's fix this together."
Work men/boys can do individually (amid jobs/school/scrolling): Start early (teens/20s/30s) for better relationships.
Real's advice (has sons):
- Teach kids explicitly: Example, to son in car, "Do you think this is appropriate for our relationship?" Sons internalized: Doctor son calls post-failure, "I know I'm enough."
- Create relational cherishing subculture: Pick-up basketball with relational focus, anti-bullying in schools, online course "Raising Relational Boys and Girls."
For young people:
- Find older mentors who are happy, be explicit: let them teach you.
- Key life-changer: > "There is no redeeming value in harshness... Nothing that harshness does that loving firmness doesn't do better."
Apply to others, self, what you accept: > "If it isn't kind, I'm not interested... Say it like you're on my side."
Internalize parental judgment? Cultivate kindness internally for external kindness.
At conference, signing books, handler warns of missing plane. On plane (drinking then), spills Sharpie ink on expensive shirt. Adaptive child rages: "loser." Could spiral to depression.
Instead: > "Listen, sweetheart... The same ADD brain that ruined this shirt wrote the books... Cut me some slack." Writes off as business expense. Shapes inner dialogue with finesse/love.
Analogy: Gym first time brutal, 300th time nailed. Same for silencing harsh voice: > "Honey, stop." Practice leads to liberation.
True education in relational understanding. Men focus on landscape; need relational piece.
Host's half-joking Y chromosome theory: Primordial male hits rock, experiments (hurt self/other, throw over tree). Boys at weddings mix drinks to test limits. Love action at a distance (remote control car, video games). Adult males play "what would happen if" for life feedback. Celebrate Y (and X) chromosomes, but they don't address relationality. Few bridge action-at-distance with relational life—like Real.
Rejects simplistic views like evolutionary theory framing men solely as providers and protectors or dissolving into emotions; advocates for wholeness integrating all aspects.
"I want wholeness."
Emphasizes helping men and boys become whole people through practical, actionable advice.
Gratitude for Terry Real's Contributions
Appreciation for Terry Real's books and courses (links to be provided in show notes/captions); courses available for sign-up.
Thanks for being a public educator teaching men and women, especially men today, how to love themselves more, love others more, love life more, and learn to relate.
"You're doing beautiful work. There's so much darkness in this world right now."
Mutual honor and fun in the conversation; "To be continued."
Thank you for joining the discussion with Terry Real; links to his work in show notes/captions.
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Huberman's first book: Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.
- Worked on for more than 5 years.
- Based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
- Covers protocols for sleep, exercise, stress control, focus, motivation.
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Final thanks for joining discussion with Terry Real and for interest in science.
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